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What Makes a Healthy Community and How to Deal When it Isn't
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@shit-piss-love Yes. Civility cannot be the only goal. Good faith engagement is also essential.
Someone who lies while all the protocols are followed, is as harmful as someone who breaks all the protocols.
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The need for “civility” is used to silence abuse victims, particularly in relation to their abuser and the accusations. I’ll leave it at that.
eta: No I won’t. I need to add that particularly victims of childhood abuse, it is a frequent enough result that they have an impossible time taking up ANY space, let alone the space that their anger IS entitled to based on what was done to them. Getting angry, being ABLE to get angry, about abuse? It’s healthy and reasonable. When somebody does terrible things to you (or people you care about), an emotional reaction is perfectly reasonable.
It’s not just about winning arguments.
the entity previously known as Sunny
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Agreed. Tone policing is essentially a tool to silence those whose polite protests got them nothing, in order to maintain the status quo.
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Reacting with ANGER instead of SHAME to abuse is good, and shaming people for not being civil in these throes is not helpful or healthy. It won’t win over any hearts or minds, but that doesn’t matter. It truly doesn’t matter. No amount of civil discourse is going to change the behavior of people who prey on other people.
If I have to be civil to convince somebody else that I DESERVE to be safe, then they are not CAPABLE of creating an environment in which I can be safe, because forced civility towards my abuser is not safe.
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It can definitely vary by life experience. My mother, who is in that corner of BPD that people used to call the Witch subtype, was physically and emotionally abusive to me when I was a young child. The physical abuse was always preceded by verbal abuse as she worked herself up to the state where she could conscience beating her own child. It took a lot of work for me to get to the point where people breaking from civility didn’t immediately trigger my hypervigilance.
I think there may be a distinction to be made about what avenue or community you’re talking about. Out in the wider world, civility is definitely, almost constantly, used to excuse at least subtextual but often overt aggression or oppression of others. Aspirationally though, in your own community safe space? Acting with civility can go hand in hand with kindness. Doing so may be the thing that allows those carrying traumas around high emotional charge to feel like they can safely participate.
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I’m rewatching Chernobyl right now on a whim and I JUST got to an early scene where the lead character is trying to impress upon the higher-ups that the report indicates something incredibly disastrous happened, and he’s chided for being alarmist, and he has to ask with such INTENT, quiet civility if he might calmly express his concerns. You see him struggle so much to explain how huge the problem is in a way that won’t get him shut down, while the viewer of course knows that he’s 100% right.
Just kind of amazing I had that scene come up right after these posts about civility and whatnot.
Personally, I really try to maintain a certain amount of – I don’t know that I’d call it civility, but etiquette? Respectability? When I’m posting about conflicts, because I know it’ll go farther with others in the conversation. Not because we should not be allowed our rage and emotion in situations that warrant it; I’m just trying really hard to not give other people space to just dismiss me for being too ROWDY.
ETA: And, frankly, because I can. I’m coming in from the point of privilege that moderating my wording isn’t something born of trauma or abuse, like others have had to experience. I can manage it without that awful emotional association and baggage others may have, which makes it a lot easier for me. People who are in the victim position shouldn’t be asked to behave nicely for their point to be considered.
she/her | playlist
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@Roz said in What Makes a Healthy Community and How to Deal When it Isn't:
People who are in the victim position shouldn’t be asked to behave nicely for their point to be considered.
This.
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@Roz said in What Makes a Healthy Community and How to Deal When it Isn't:
Personally, I really try to maintain a certain amount of – I don’t know that I’d call it civility, but etiquette? Respectability? When I’m posting about conflicts, because I know it’ll go farther with others in the conversation. Not because we should not be allowed our rage and emotion in situations that warrant it; I’m just trying really hard to not give other people space to just dismiss me for being too ROWDY.
This is a good point. The word “civility” definitely carries a lot of weight. All I’m really trying to say is that if you want to have a safe community that everyone can participate in, it should be acknowledge that breaching a positive emotional tone does trigger a lot of people.
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I mean, honestly right now I’m so furious I’m seeing white; I recognize it for what it is though, and clearly I’m engaging in civil fashion – because nobody participating in this discussion is responsible for it. But I’m a damn superhuman to begin with, and knowing how this feels and why it feels that way, I know how damaging calls for civility in the face of abuse CAN be.
I know not everyone experiences things the same way, but I can recognize that other people DO, and make sure room is kept for them. I can learn how other people cope, and make sure that space is kept, too. Hearing @shit-piss-love mention the hypervigilance thing, I now know that it’s IMPORTANT to take care with my engagement there, so I’m gonna do my best to respect that. It’s ugly and messy, but all of this shit is.
the entity previously known as Sunny
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@IoleRae said in What Makes a Healthy Community and How to Deal When it Isn't:
It’s ugly and messy, but all of this shit is.
Church. I appreciate you.
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On the civility front, I call bullshit.
We’re not Vulcans. We have unlocked emotions. They run free sometimes and they should especially in the face of outrage.
The idea that everyone needs to be ‘civil’ needs to go diaf because someone can and should be upset about certain events, and guess what, that is a necessary thing. It could be necessary for their healing process, if they can heal to begin with but the biggest thing to remember for all the people crying for civility 100% of the time?
It.
Is.
Not.
About.
You.
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@Mourne I get what you’re sometimes, but I think you need to have a perception of what situation you’re walking into where you need to consider where civility or emotion is the route one should be going with. Especially if you want people to actually listen to what you have to say and not just brush you off because “oh, they’re just being dramatic”. No, they have something important to say. I think there’s a certain level of nuance involved to when and where civility or emotion is required.
I don't know what I'm doing. Poke at Seven Nations sevennations.aresmush.com port 2021
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@Testament said in What Makes a Healthy Community and How to Deal When it Isn't:
@Mourne I get what you’re sometimes, but I think you need to have a perception of what situation you’re walking into where you need to consider where civility or emotion is the route one should be going with.
Right. I want to be civil around people in my safe spaces, people who are vulnerable, or those I know have actual real, visceral reactions to being party to negative emotional charge.
I want Nazi punks to fuck off and I’ll fuck them off with a sharp tongue real fast.
Context matters.
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@shit-piss-love as you said though that can be really dependent upon the life experience one has.
I can assure you that though when I am at my best I try to be calm and de-escalating when trying to unwind a current situation that an environment where there is an expectation that no negative emotions are allowed to be expressed and people especially women are expected to be polite and respectful and sweet and considerate of the person they are trying to communicate hurt them lest it make others uncomfortable is an environment that is inherently dangerous to me, also as someone who experienced significant abuse in my family of origin, faith community, and early partner relationships.
Making sure one suppresses all expression of emotion except when one can maximize the comfort of the person who is being told how their actions have impacted them, with a disdain either unspoken or outright who cannot always be calm in the face of it, and the dismissal of upset as “too sensitive” were used as tools to force submission and acceptance of just about every kind of abuse that there can be during my growing up and young adulthood years until I got out.
And while decades of therapy, for the most part breaking the cycle with my own family, and having a reasonably successful and rewarding life since means I don’t have to even think about stuff like that every day, the scars run deep and I will never, ever be comfortable taking up space, unless its temporarily as an advocate or mediator (and that’s a different sort of space).
While I agree that putting boundaries as far as permissible behavior is a good thing and necessary thing in any community space, not allowing for negative emotion or shaming it or labeling it as something that should be hidden pings all my danger senses.
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@shit-piss-love said in What Makes a Healthy Community and How to Deal When it Isn't:
I want to be civil around people in my safe spaces, people who are vulnerable, or those I know have actual real, visceral reactions to being party to negative emotional charge.
I want to be civil, too. I want to be kind and gentle and soft to people who are vulnerable while they are hurting, and give them every bit of space that they need to scream profanities and bloody nonsense if they need to. And I want those people to give me that space and gentleness and kindness when I am the one hurting, letting me be just as terrible as I need to until I can breathe again.
the entity previously known as Sunny
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I want my friend to be able to say bad things to me because he is out of his mind with grief, and to know that the base relationship is strong enough that when the dust settles and I find out what was going on, we…get over it, and move forward. Stronger.
(sorry for doublepost, I have a lot to say about this topic)
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Who even gets to define what is ‘civil’ or not? According to old white men, if I dare to complain about being marginalized in any but the most self-effacing of ways, I’m not being civil. According to my ex husband, if I rightly demand that he takes responsibility for the two children he helped create in any but the most non-angry and non-confrontational way possible, I’m not being civil. According to the MSB crew, if I drop a cuss word while explaining my point, I’m not being civil.
Civility is a code for ‘don’t make a fuss because I don’t want to really have to consider your emotional state’. I am usually pretty considerate of the emotional state of others but I am done putting other people’s feelings over my own. If someone wants to stop listening to me because I cuss and my vocal tone is upset, then the likelihood is that they were never going to listen to me in the place.
I’m not the sort to relentlessly attack or be ‘uncivil’ to anyone that I just don’t like. If I don’t like you, I’m just going to ignore you. But if I am dealing with someone who is abusive or a subject that I care a whole lot about? Damn right that I cuss and get expressive.
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I do think though that in difference spaces and community gathering spaces that it is really good to have clear, enforced boundaries. I believe that places that try to be all things to all people tend to be the ones most vulnerable to causing harm even though the intention is the opposite.
So what is important in my observation is not so much the wishes of what we should be and do at our best, but the vision if the people who own/manage that space, putting into place policies and actions that facilitate that, and constant maintenence. I think the wider community of mushers makes that so difficult because it is an intimate community in many respects and a lot of the policy and moderation techniques that can be effectively used in larger but diverse and passionate hobby communities just are harder to put into place with mushers because there’s a high degree of personal crossover and contact.
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@IoleRae said in What Makes a Healthy Community and How to Deal When it Isn't:
I want to be civil, too. I want to be kind and gentle and soft to people who are vulnerable while they are hurting, and give them every bit of space that they need to scream profanities and bloody nonsense if they need to. And I want those people to give me that space and gentleness and kindness when I am the one hurting, letting me be just as terrible as I need to until I can breathe again.
Super good point. I am now the kind of person who uh, speaks their mind, and I found it incredibly helpful to seize the ability to be uncivil. When I first moved, from the place where anyone being uncivil around me made me incredibly anxious or full-on triggered, to the place where I could take my emotions and express them outward in exactly the way they felt, it was game-changing. It just took a real long while to get there and before I did get there, I definitely made choices about which groups I could and couldn’t be around because they were or weren’t safe spaces for someone that was traumatized by hurtful speech.
Edit: I just made a realization about how my mom’s obsession with literally beating out of me any kind of deviation from accepted social norms may be rooted in her own reactions to being forced into civility as a woman growing up in the 60s. Gonna unpack that thing in therapy.
