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How dangerous is VASpider?
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I think what it comes down to is this…
It’s very nice to give someone the benefit of the doubt and say ‘Well, maybe they changed.’ But it’s been what, 25 years? (Seriously? That long?) And they’ve proven over and over that they have no interest in changing their behavior. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me two dozen times, I’m an idiot.
Stay away. Stay far, far away.
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@TNP Except this isn’t about them in our world, it’s about them in the real world interacting with people who aren’t us.
Who cares what we have to say? Let the normal person doing real-world things form their own opinion.
He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
BE AN ADULT -
Didn’t VAS do like $40,000+ in damages to someone’s RL house and have some pretty big impacts along the same lines as their online crap?
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@Taika Surreality’s house I believe. Which Spider will say was not his/their fault. A while back I was in contact with Spider, benignly, and while the conversations were benign … A friend recently told me they did something obscenely awful to them (like this past year), and I’ve cut off all ties again by ghosting.
It isn’t my story to tell but how this person can handle what Spider did is beyond me. To add insult to injury Spider now asserts to having memory loss and claims to have completely forgotten what they did to that person.
I would not get involved in any way shape or form. The things they do to people does have RL ramifications.
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When someone shows you who they are, believe them.
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@Pavel Because it is always a good idea to tell someone to be cautious and create real fucking boundaries with someone who has a history of not respecting them…
Spiders online shit affected real life relationships of people who trusted them. Spiders RL shit affected online relationships of people who trusted them.
People like this need to come with a warning label. Period.
If people wish to proceed either way let them do so with eyes wide open.
ETA Note: I know it feels weird for people to be lingering on this sometimes years later. In most cases normal healthy adults who’ve matured and even some who have gone through therapy.
My rebuttal is this: How deep does someone have to scar another person for them to remember it let alone have it color how they interact with others years later?
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Is VA short for Virtual Adept? Is this a Mage: the Ascension – wait sorry nevermind.
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@Pavel said in How dangerous is VASpider?:
Who cares what we have to say? Let the normal person doing real-world things form their own opinion.
Nah. This isn’t it. If there is a predator known for hurting people in the real-world, and you know someone that predator is invested into as a potential next target… You don’t just stand back and possibly wait for someone just to be abused about it. They absolutely deserve to know the histories and the risks that are associated as fore-warned. We break toxic cycles any time and every time we can.
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I think it’s accurate though to say that the MU community and the members of it don’t have the most up to date examples of bad behavior from him, though. and so for any warnings to be realistic and not… intensely overblown to an outside observer, it needs to be qualified.
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I’m still gonna respectfully disagree. I don’t know Spider. I don’t think I’ve ever encountered Spider. But if that was ever to change… I would hope like hell anyone who has would warn me about it.
That doesn’t mean that Spider may not have changed. People can change, and a lot of them do so drastically. If Spider has changed, though, it’s probably only after a lot of work to self-improve and course correct. If it’s a change that actually is drastic enough to really count, part of that will include trying to atone and make amends. A change at that level usually comes with an understanding that a bad reputation and a lot of hurt and pain caused to others is still and always will be attached. A changed person knows that only time and actions will prove that change at all, and will be understanding that until then, wariness is a safety concern, and would be willing to put that kind of effort in.
If there isn’t a change… It only makes those warnings MORE important. If there is someone who once was an abuser talking to anyone at all, friends, enemies, strangers… I don’t care what kind of relationship. They still deserve the warnings to pay attention and to make good choices for themselves. We don’t owe abusers the chance to prove themselves changed or still-abusive ahead of time. It’s never a good idea to let them go running around sans warnings.
They don’t have to be pre-judged. People can give them as many new chances as they do or don’t wish to provide. But they shouldn’t have to give those chances unknowingly just to be blind-sided down the road with nothing better to be done about it after than regret not having said something earlier when there was the chance.
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Qualifying warnings (with things like “this was the case X number of years ago”) isn’t the same as not warning.
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Yeah, what roz said. Effective warnings talk about specific incidents and dangers, or if they aren’t first hand, are specific about how well you know the people in question and the details of the incident. “I’ve heard a number of stories from the MU community about this person violating boundaries and pulling manipulative tactics including x y z, but I haven’t closely followed the person since then” is a pretty decent summary of this thread, and a decent enough warning without ascribing their actions to the present.
Obviously there are plenty of people who think he can’t or hasn’t changed, or who were impacted enough by his behavior that they don’t intend to extend the benefit of the doubt. The personal feelings of someone you trust are often a pretty good warning - personally I’ve trusted friends on their vibe checks plenty. But they’re clear what info their warnings are based on, and that I think is important.
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I’m sorry I wasn’t clear, and was thus misunderstood.
Warn them, obviously. With the caveat of context and the fact the information could be as much as decades out of date. We can’t speak as if we know this person at all anymore, just their history. Treat it as that, then let them make up their own damn mind instead of telling them to stay away.
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@spiriferida If Spider has become self aware and has changed then they will understand why people have this reaction.
Recognizing trauma that one caused, accepting it and not redirecting blame a big step for former abusers.
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spider is a gross, vicious, manipulative weirdo who “changed” and “improved” and “learned” like a dozen times and yet somehow always ended up a gross, vicious, manipulative weirdo the second there was some perceived social advantage to it, a trend dating back to when i was a literal actual child and anybody who falls for it at this point deserves zero sympathy
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Are you trying to victim-blame or was that just an accidental target of your vitriol there?
Like, I know I’m on the mild side here for critique of vaspider. If you’re trying to say “if you read all our discussion of vaspider and still think they’re not a shitty person that’s on you”, that’s one thing, but “anyone who falls for it” can be a bigger pool than just people who read a gossip forum for a niche hobby. To someone who is manipulative and seeking to take advantage of others in a consistent fashion, their strategy by nature is usually to seek out people who don’t know them or their reputation, once they’ve burned their bridges elsewhere.
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@spiriferida It does feel a very victim blame targeted statement. Spider is very charismatic and I’ve fallen for their BS multiple times.
️I guess that makes me deserve no sympathy.
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@Prototart said in How dangerous is VASpider?:
anybody who falls for it at this point deserves zero sympathy
You know, you’re absolutely right. It’s impossible for people to have never heard about this one individual in this one niche hobby, especially when we’re specifically talking about a person who isn’t part of this hobby and is encountering them elsewhere. Clearly they should know better through some kind of osmosis, or something.
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IMO this is an especially bad take. These warnings are helpful for anyone still wading through the swamp that is this hobby, but there are always going to be people who are just trusting enough, or perhaps vulnerable enough, to fall victim to expert manipulators and abusers. So long as someone continues to behave in the ways that have been described above there will ALWAYS be a next victim. How and why the victimization happened will always be different. And when the victimized person ends up injured in some way, whether or not an “I told you so” is in order, I hope they receive some kind of sympathy as they try to pick up the pieces.
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@Prototart said in How dangerous is VASpider?:
spider is a gross, vicious, manipulative weirdo who “changed” and “improved” and “learned” like a dozen times and yet somehow always ended up a gross, vicious, manipulative weirdo the second there was some perceived social advantage to it, a trend dating back to when i was a literal actual child and anybody who falls for it at this point deserves zero sympathy
I don’t tend to jump on bandwagons, but yeah, what the fuck, man?
