@Faraday And I can appreciate that. In many ways I’m sheltered, since I’ve stuck on mostly the same place for decades, so I’m not trying to lay down some universal principles. In fact I come in search of wisdom from the wider MU verse.

See, the game I play on is still running, and has been since 1991, although from around 2013 it’s been pretty much dead, aside from my recent efforts to revive it. But the way the game worked was that there were essentially a dozen or more mini-games within the whole; it’s set in Middle-earth so each realm had their own sphere, or +culture as we called them (e.g. Gondor, the Shire, Isengard, Lothlorien), which had its own staff, grid, local theme and was largely autonomous.

So my own experience is based on watching the rise and fall of various ‘games’ within that, and getting the chance to try my own as local staff. If I may say so myself, I was typically rather successful in my projects, because I had learned from great staffers around and above me, and once upon a time I waded into the depths of WORA to discover how large and varied the MU verse was, and took some valuable insights with me back which served me well. It’s from that vantage that I keep seeing everything fizzle whenever someone stops providing the fun for others.

So, I guess, I’m back.

My problem isn’t getting things going. I’m always good at that, and while I’m doing it, everyone involved seems to have fun. My problem is that I’m always doing this largely by myself, and what I want most, desperately sometimes, is some help to avoid burnout (and is the reason I left in the end around 2012). Someone to help shoulder the load of driving things, so that the more social (or simply unplanned) RP can also take place and have a contextual background to it to inspire scenes.

However, I have found great difficulty over the years, and especially since a certain conventional wisdom set in for the other people in staffing positions that random/social RP is better than plots, in getting those players to even understand where I am coming from, let alone actually find a way we can cooperate and make everyone happy. Because I perceive that my way keeps working, and the other way keeps fizzling, I can’t help but feel they’re being selfish and counter-productive, and I know that’s not fair to feel that way, but I see no end to the cycle.

That’s why I really wanted to hear Raistlin’s thoughts, because I’m not trying to blame other people for their preferences, or say they’re Wrong. I want to be able to reach, understand, and adequately staff for people, without clashing over this difference in preferences. There’s plenty of people for me to work with, like you say the social RPers who will be there forever but who lurk because there’s nothing really to join in with, but challenging the conventional wisdom is hard, and unless I do it, honestly things just don’t happen. For anyone, and that makes me sad, because as far as I am concerned we could all be having so much fun. I just want our game back, y’know?

Anyhow, not trying to hijack this thread for my own game. Just seeking feedback.

@Raistlin Thank you for the reply, and that does indeed give me a good insight. Perhaps that same balance of periodic Plot scenes with character-driven play in between could be a winning combination. I shall try.

Thanks for sharing.

@Faraday

Okay, then we’re talking about BarRP, by those terms, and the question then is: can BarRP alone sustain activity? Not in my personal experience or observation.

But even using such terms, what actually sets Social RP apart from BarRP, aside from the existence of a plot?

@Faraday said in The 3-Month Players:

The church scene in Saving Private Ryan falls squarely in the Social RP category for me. You could take it out and the plot would be the same, but it’s important for character development.

Sure, but that character development is still within a story. If it were a couple of guys at the bar talking about friends they lost in the war, it wouldn’t be the same scene with the same character development.

If you’re saying that BarRP alone cannot sustain a MU - I wouldn’t necessarily disagree, but I’ve just never seen that happen. There’s always some kind of Social RP going on. And in fact, BarRP often leads to Social RP, since it’s the way characters first meet each other. It opens doors to further RP.

This is the crux of the issue, for me, because my personal experience tells me the exact opposite. I have literally never seen BarRP (by itself) lead to anything other than IC fizzling out, precisely because it doesn’t seem to have anywhere to go without something plottish happening.

You mentioned something else a while back, about how the more social-minded RPers are the ones left when you turn the lights out, and I don’t doubt that. The question I would have is: why are you turning the lights out?

If the answer is similar to: ‘most of the players left because things ran their course and the plot ended’, then I would argue that’s exactly what I’m talking about. The social RP, even if it is enduring to certain individuals, is not sustaining a population worth keeping the lights on for. And, lest I be misunderstood, as an abstract situation that’s fine, and maybe things really did run their course, and there’s no problem with that.

But in my attempts to revive activity on a game long dead, I’m aiming a little higher than that. Attempts have been made in the past, usually by “social RPers”, and it always fizzles, whereas whenever I come in with my plot-heavy staffing things pick up, a community builds, and it even takes a while for that momentum to fade after I leave. To me I can’t find any clearer indication that my approach works, and certainly works a whole lot better than the opposite approach.

Anyhow, I’ll bow out here I think. I get what people are saying about a balance, and that’s definitely something I strive to encourage. TBH there’s also a fair component of pride to the internal dealings of my game, hence me wanting to understand and bridge gaps where I can with the players I want to both court and ask for help, and I got some good feedback here.

Cheers for your time!

@Faraday said in The 3-Month Players:

I like that analogy. I’s the “social RP” scenes in Saving Private Ryan that elevate the movie beyond just a shoot-em-up. Like the quiet scene in the church where the captain and sergeant are remembering the guys they’ve lost. That’s character development.

But not what I would call social RP. What you’re describing has a point to it, even if it’s just talking. It’s an exploration of their predicament, founded upon the plot. It’s, well, part of the story, even.

I think the ‘social RP’ is the stuff where characters randomly bump into each other, for no reason other than their players being bored, with nothing to really talk about beyond what they randomly come up with. So I appreciate the metaphors, but they’re not really addressing what I was talking about, which was that social RP by itself, with no plot, seems to never actually sustain a population, at least from my observation. From what it sounds like on this thread, that’s a common problem everywhere.

Yes, both are needed. Unfortunately in the case of my game it’s the plot part which keeps on being left out unless certain key players are there doing it, and the hardest part of all seems to be getting social RPers to understand this.

@Pavel said in The 3-Month Players:

To make a metaphor out of it, sort of, how I view it is thus: John Wick cares about his wife, and his dog. That character development, that relationship/emotion-driven play gives us much more investment and interest in the plot-driven stuff of the rest of the film than if it was just a regular"retired killer comes out of retirement for one. more. job." So the social RP isn’t just acceptable, it’s required to make the plot RP have any kind of investment.

I don’t know if I agree with that. At least as it has been put into a metaphor.

I see it more like this: If John Wick had simply gone to the gas station that day, and all that happened is he paid for his gas and went home, then there is no movie series at all. Something had to happen for there to be a story, and what happened was John Wick was assaulted by Theon Greyjoy and then his dog was killed.

I understand that his emotional investment in that is what makes it matter and resonate with the audience/players, but I don’t see that as something born of social RP. That’s a detail in his Bio.

I think the social RP comes in when players then either a) explore it with John Wick ICly, b) talk about it with others as IC news, or c) don’t care at all that it happened but are just stoked there are now active players to socially RP with because something happened.

But without the Event, what does the social RP by itself offer in terms of (other/new) player investment? If John Wick’s love for his wife and dog is the social RP, in the metaphor, then what story is being told if the wife never dies or if John is never attacked by the Russians? I’m not seeing much for anyone to come get involved with, and grow activity from.

Serious question, not just trying to contradict you.

@Faraday And I can appreciate that. In many ways I’m sheltered, since I’ve stuck on mostly the same place for decades, so I’m not trying to lay down some universal principles. In fact I come in search of wisdom from the wider MU verse.

See, the game I play on is still running, and has been since 1991, although from around 2013 it’s been pretty much dead, aside from my recent efforts to revive it. But the way the game worked was that there were essentially a dozen or more mini-games within the whole; it’s set in Middle-earth so each realm had their own sphere, or +culture as we called them (e.g. Gondor, the Shire, Isengard, Lothlorien), which had its own staff, grid, local theme and was largely autonomous.

So my own experience is based on watching the rise and fall of various ‘games’ within that, and getting the chance to try my own as local staff. If I may say so myself, I was typically rather successful in my projects, because I had learned from great staffers around and above me, and once upon a time I waded into the depths of WORA to discover how large and varied the MU verse was, and took some valuable insights with me back which served me well. It’s from that vantage that I keep seeing everything fizzle whenever someone stops providing the fun for others.

So, I guess, I’m back.

My problem isn’t getting things going. I’m always good at that, and while I’m doing it, everyone involved seems to have fun. My problem is that I’m always doing this largely by myself, and what I want most, desperately sometimes, is some help to avoid burnout (and is the reason I left in the end around 2012). Someone to help shoulder the load of driving things, so that the more social (or simply unplanned) RP can also take place and have a contextual background to it to inspire scenes.

However, I have found great difficulty over the years, and especially since a certain conventional wisdom set in for the other people in staffing positions that random/social RP is better than plots, in getting those players to even understand where I am coming from, let alone actually find a way we can cooperate and make everyone happy. Because I perceive that my way keeps working, and the other way keeps fizzling, I can’t help but feel they’re being selfish and counter-productive, and I know that’s not fair to feel that way, but I see no end to the cycle.

That’s why I really wanted to hear Raistlin’s thoughts, because I’m not trying to blame other people for their preferences, or say they’re Wrong. I want to be able to reach, understand, and adequately staff for people, without clashing over this difference in preferences. There’s plenty of people for me to work with, like you say the social RPers who will be there forever but who lurk because there’s nothing really to join in with, but challenging the conventional wisdom is hard, and unless I do it, honestly things just don’t happen. For anyone, and that makes me sad, because as far as I am concerned we could all be having so much fun. I just want our game back, y’know?

Anyhow, not trying to hijack this thread for my own game. Just seeking feedback.

@Raistlin Thank you for the reply, and that does indeed give me a good insight. Perhaps that same balance of periodic Plot scenes with character-driven play in between could be a winning combination. I shall try.

Thanks for sharing.

@Faraday said in The 3-Month Players:

Mostly these different playstyles can peacefully co-exist on the same game. I think it only becomes a challenge when you lose critical mass to sustain a type of RP (like to @Tapewyrm’s point, when you don’t have enough plot/adventure peeps to run or participate in the plots).

It’s more in this case that unless someone runs something, there swiftly becomes no RP at all, because the more random RP fizzles out. Every time.

I have never not observed this to happen, although I’ll concede I have remained in a certain gaming niche for 25 years and only rarely explored outside of it, so of course ymmv.

@Ominous For sure. That’s what I try to do. Or are you saying that’s a good to way to try to get it across?

@Raistlin said in The 3-Month Players:

I know I might be in the minority, but I genuinely enjoy games that focus primarily on social interactions and “bar RP.” In fact, I’ve participated in private games where that was the main activity, and found them incredibly fulfilling.

Don’t misunderstand—I appreciate well-crafted plots and would certainly join global events. However, my personal focus tends toward developing character relationships and running private storylines with my RP partners. For me, having the tools and space to tell these intimate stories matters more than participating in numerous public scenes or global plot arcs.

I find the most enjoyment in those smaller moments between characters: the conversations that reveal backstories, the gradual building of trust, and the organic development of relationships (whether friendly, romantic, or antagonistic). These interactions often create the most memorable RP experiences for me.

Sorry to barge in on this, but you sound like just the type of player I’m trying to better understand, or maybe to get to better understand me. If you’re willing I would like to pick your brains on this topic?

See, I’m someone who thrives on running plots etc. partly because I enjoy storytelling this way, and partly because it’s an ingrained duty I feel as staff. It’s been my observation that when nobody is doing that, then everything tends to fizzle, and so since I’m good at running them I always default to doing so when no-one else is.

The problem is, this has largely felt like a thankless task over the years, because unfortunately the number of other people around who are like me dwindled to zero, and really the only players left were players who have the same preferences as yours, and so either I stick around and do things for them, or they fizzle out because none of them are doing any of the things I used to do. And here’s the rub, at least for me: they won’t listen when I try to explain or discuss these things, because it always runs into the same wall of preference, i.e. “I like it this way, so…”

Please don’t get me wrong. I’m not trying to attack either you or your preferences, and I’m certainly not trying to ask you to account for other people. I’m not even a plot-exclusive player, really. I enjoy social RP myself too. So I’m not trying to feed you some WrongFun theory, just that as someone who wants to see a given game or community thrive, I’ve come to be convinced of the necessity of having someone there actively driving things, in some way. Preferably staff, but if certain players have the gumption to do it themselves all the better. If not, then no matter how good the intentions, it’s been my experience that things fizzle, and then players who prefer social RP then have none either.

But, I also understand that some people are also attached to the idea of their RP freedom, so to speak, without staff oversight or having to surrender their RP to someone else’s plot. I don’t know if that’s how you feel about it too, but that’s definitely something I’ve heard.

So, really I’m just asking, from a player like me to a player like you, is there a happy medium to be found? Is there a way I can better appreciate your perspective, or a way to explain mine which might help bridge such a divide? I would appreciate hearing your thoughts.