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But Why
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Is this the point where I get to whip out my notes on historical hygiene practices, from the time that abbots were complaining of Norse invaders seducing local women what with their heathen “baths” and “combing their beards” to the importance of frequent undergarment changes for proper Tudor lords and ladies?
Because I can and I will, and that is not an offer, that is a threat.
I double dog dare you (because it would be interesting to read).
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Yep. I think it’s for every game runner to decide what balance they want to strike with players. I know i’ve been disappointed to have storylines disappear because they were not comfortable to other people (and didn’t appreciate those folks shitting all over people on channel and the like for enjoying those storylines, as if their viewpoint was the only one that was valid) but you know, that’s how it goes. if there are certain boundaries or decisions made, you get to decide if it’s worth it to keep playing. most of the time, at least for me, it has been. everyone’s got a line where the rp of uncomfortable things won’t be enjoyable. those of us with higher tolerance, imo, really should be careful with those who don’t, because while you can certainly add stuff when you’re with people who you know are not going to be oocly disturbed by it, you can’t take back what people who WILL be experience if you do let it fly.
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@STD
In those dark dystopias you fight the corporations to make the world a better place for everyone. In the dark ages, it was a struggle to survive just being a human.Think about the fantasy genre and the themes it has.
Lord of the Rings - Take the ring of power, resist it’s call to make you all powerful and destroy it.
Game of Thrones - Kill everyone and take power for yourself.
Beowulf - Kill monsters and take power for yourself.
Robinhood - Kill the nobles and take power for yourself because you think you can do a better job.It’s all about selfishness. It’s an entire genera based on the idea that getting what you want is the only important thing. You are just replacing one self-important jerk with a nicer self-important jerk and nothing ever gets better for anyone else in a dark ages fantasy. Look at Lord of the rings, all those books, all that adventure and the only thing that really changed was 1 ring got destroyed and one human village got roasted by a dragon. Then life pretty much went back to normal.
Sci-fi is for the most part a more collectivist endeavor. You don’t take down the mega-corp to replace them, you take them down to collapse a system of oppression. There is a reason to fight. A better future to aim for. I don’t see that happening in a lot of fantasy stories.
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@De-Villefort lmao at lord of the rings being distilled down to a narrative of selfishness. what in the world. you are just trolling now
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@De-Villefort maybe you need to branch out from largely white eurocentric authors/traditons. both in fantasy and the history you read.
Also: what’s the difference between ‘kill the nobles and take power for yourself because you can do a better job’ and ‘take down the mega-corps and their power brokers to put a new structure in place that benefits you more’
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I solely RP scenes in outhouses. You don’t know what you’re missing.
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@De-Villefort Depends on the cyberpunk fiction. I know tons about awful folks doing awful things to good folk. I mean it is based on the book itself, I’m a huge cyberpunk fan.
Also in most cyberpunk novels, the MegaCorps tend to win in the end.
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@DrQuinn outhouses, feh. you and your modern tech. i remember the good old days of chamberpots and hanging one’s ass up over the railing of the ship as we rped out the 2 months of travel to stay true to ‘rl’.
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@De-Villefort said in But Why:
In those dark dystopias you fight the corporations to make the world a better place for everyone.
You’ve certainly been reading and watching very different dark dystopian things than I have. It’s true that some have those themes, but a lot of them are just about survival too. Shadowrun is one of the biggest cyberpunk RPGs, and it’s mostly just about Ocean’s 11 style heists. There’s no moral high ground here.
Lord of the Rings - Take the ring of power, resist it’s call to make you all powerful and destroy it.
Robinhood - Kill the nobles and take power for yourself because you think you can do a better job.
It’s all about selfishness.These are very odd takes on the themes in these stories. LoTR is all about folks being selfless and saving the world. The whole mantra of Robin Hood is “rob from the rich and give to the poor”. Of course there are variants of Robin Hood where that’s not the case, but they’re the exception, not the rule.
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@Roz
Lord of the rings was a story about resisting selfishness but it was still a world built on selfishness. There was only the one guy who could be trusted to hold the ring because everyone else wanted it for their own power.Remember the The Council of Elrond scene where they argued about who would carry it because they all wanted it for themselves? None of them wanted anyone else to have it.
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@De-Villefort said in But Why:
@STD
In those dark dystopias you fight the corporations to make the world a better place for everyone. In the dark ages, it was a struggle to survive just being a human.Think about the fantasy genre and the themes it has.
Lord of the Rings - Take the ring of power, resist it’s call to make you all powerful and destroy it.
Game of Thrones - Kill everyone and take power for yourself.
Beowulf - Kill monsters and take power for yourself.
Robinhood - Kill the nobles and take power for yourself because you think you can do a better job.It’s all about selfishness. It’s an entire genera based on the idea that getting what you want is the only important thing. You are just replacing one self-important jerk with a nicer self-important jerk and nothing ever gets better for anyone else in a dark ages fantasy. Look at Lord of the rings, all those books, all that adventure and the only thing that really changed was 1 ring got destroyed and one human village got roasted by a dragon. Then life pretty much went back to normal.
Sci-fi is for the most part a more collectivist endeavor. You don’t take down the mega-corp to replace them, you take them down to collapse a system of oppression. There is a reason to fight. A better future to aim for. I don’t see that happening in a lot of fantasy stories.
It seems to me like you’re trying to apply some hierarchical moralistic value to playing one setting over another as if (and this part is key, so pay attention) these were mutually exclusive.
They aren’t. You can play an anti-corp revolutionary in a cyberpunk setting and a questing dragonhunting noble in a fantasy one. Debate over.
That said, the idea that in an era of neo-liberalism (and just plain liberalism) gone fucking batshit nuts you think roleplayers would limit themselves within the cyberpunk genres to solely playing the underdog and you’d have no one playing the amoral corporate mercenaries or CEOs (thus deflating the entire moralistic point of your argument), you have zero contextual awareness of this hobby, buddy.
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@De-Villefort said in But Why:
@Roz
Lord of the rings was a story about resisting selfishness but it was still a world built on selfishness.so is cyberpunk…?
she/her | playlist
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@De-Villefort Excuse me don’t you do Samwise wrong like that.
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@BloodAngel
True, the corps usually do win in the end but it’s the struggle that makes the story good.
If it wasn’t for Tyrian I couldn’t even watch game of thrones. It was sooo boring. It was just greedy people doing stupid, short sighted, things that ended up making their lives worse every time. No one wanted to cooperate with anyone. It was like the writer was trying to cram as many unwise choices into the story line as possible. -
@De-Villefort said in But Why:
It was just greedy people doing stupid, short sighted, things that ended up making their lives worse every time. No one wanted to cooperate with anyone. It was like the writer was trying to cram as many unwise choices into the story line as possible.
@De-Villefort Are you not American? I feel like you might not be American. Or someone that reads about the American government. Or live in America. And know Americans. Or people. In general.
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@De-Villefort said in But Why:
@Roz
Lord of the rings was a story about resisting selfishness but it was still a world built on selfishness.so is cyberpunk…?
Good point. That could be why it stands out from the other films of the genera. I guess it is told from the story perspective of a short, hairy footed street punk who gets wrapped up with a party that is a mix of corpies and street thugs.
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@Roz and usually the world is pretty filthy, full of illness, and a short lifespan too. hm.
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@De-Villefort said in But Why:
@Roz
Lord of the rings was a story about resisting selfishness but it was still a world built on selfishness.so is cyberpunk…?
Yeah, this. I feel like this person reads things and only takes in specific bits.
Someone teach them to read for comprehension. I did my time in the classrooms, I pass the buck.
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@De-Villefort You missed the point. The story isn’t about selfishness, it’s about the imperfections and failings of all mortal beings.
Nobody can be trusted with that much power. Even Frodo gave in at the end.
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Okay, so since @Tez and @TNP asked…
(I will try to keep it short, but blame them.)
#1 - Considering it was the supposed Dark Ages, the Norse were surprisingly clean. We know this not just from artifacts found at archaeological digs, but from writings of others during the time period. Thank John of Wallingford for this particular quote:
“The Danes, thanks to their habit to comb their hair every day, to bathe every Saturday, to change their garments often, and set off their persons by many such frivolous devices. In this manner, they laid siege to the virtue of the married women, and persuaded the daughters even of the nobles to be their concubines.”
We also have grave findings of ear spoons, which were used to clean wax from inside the ears, and kept on chatelaines along with their version tweezers and other grooming items. Some evidence exists that stereotypes of the Norse as blonde relates to use of lye products in their hair. Lighter hair was considered attractive in Norse society, so the lye was used for bleaching, but it also has the added side benefit of killing lice. So this isn’t the modern equivalent of showering every day, but compared to the stereotype we have of Vikings, they were actually pretty clean.
#2 - While we don’t know how often the Tudors bathed, we do know that they had some pretty fancy recipes for both baths and scented soaps of various kinds. Full on baths were highly discouraged because open pores were obviously how infection entered the body, but a daily morning scrub with linen clothes was actively recommended, and we have the writings to prove it. Linen was also used for undergarments (which does a great job of absorbing moisture off the skin) and changed out to be washed regularly. A modern historian has followed guides to Tudor hygiene practices twice as part of a personal experiment, and you can read her thoughts about the practice.
