Liberation Drama!?

[Gashlycrumb]

@voiceinthevoid said:

Siren is well intentioned, intelligent and has good social understanding… I don’t think she enjoys giving out punishments…"

Evidence to the contrary on all those points:

Siren informed me that she deliberately ignored all communication from me for half a year because I “don’t take no for an answer,” so she “can’t be bothered” with me. I am legitimately extremely annoying, but what she didn’t do is tell me that I was being punished or why,

(Nor indeed did she tell me to close the discussion and take no for an answer until after this lengthy silent treatment, which extended to all communication with her and rendered all but BaRP play out of reach.)

By the way, covert punishment is a form of abuse. It’s not a mere red flag, it’s one of the crevasses that red flags warn you against. It’s wrong and abusive even if you do it to a horrible person like myself.

If you feel an urge to defend this behaviour, please click here before you give yourself a knee-injury.

@voiceinthevoid

• Stealing the game

Probably not. I haven’t seen any evidence that Sundance didn’t agree.

• Showing Favoritism

Yes.

at the end of the day staff are people who will role play with those they enjoy and staff who try to tough it out and role play with those who irk them usually burn out.

This is true. Not playing with people you actively dislike is normal and appropriate. It’s not a problem unless they need your contribution to play and you let them labour under the false impression that you intend to give it.

There is a very significant difference between blacklisting (I do not play with those I already know I can’t stand) and whitelisting (I only play with those I already know I love.) The former is not favouritism, and the latter is.

• Not Answering Jobs

Is happening. As of last week.

She’s still milking that backlog, but it keeled over with cramps and died of dehydration.

A thing is, +request/+jobs code numbers the jobs. So if +job 500 is 180 days old and I the one I submit today is +job 770, how many jobs have been submitted per day on average for the last six months?

The recent result of this for Lib is 1.6. The previous six month’s average was a hair less than two. This is a shitty overall metric because there are many ways in which the number of +jobs doesn’t at all reflect the hours of work put in, but the Lib fashion was for staff to almost always close the job with their first comment. It’s a fine metric when the question is a +request backlog specifically. It’s not sneaky or clever, I glance at two numbers every time I buy gas and know my fuel mileage is or isn’t changing, don’t you?

Siren completed four, not counting duplicates, in under 20 minutes, not thoughtfully but in complete paragraphs, while replying to my page to tell me she didn’t believe me that I didn’t report it as a bug just to spam the system, and that she ignored me intentionally.

[hellfrog]

@Gashlycrumb said:

Siren informed me that she deliberately ignored all communication from me for half a year because I “don’t take no for an answer,” so she “can’t be bothered” with me. I am legitimately extremely annoying, but what she didn’t do is tell me that I was being punished or why,

Have you tried not being “legitimately extremely annoying?” If not, why not?

[Gashlycrumb]

@hellfrog Yes.

[Roz]

@Gashlycrumb said:
Siren informed me that she deliberately ignored all communication from me for half a year because I “don’t take no for an answer,” so she “can’t be bothered” with me. I am legitimately extremely annoying, but what she didn’t do is tell me that I was being punished or why,

(Nor indeed did she tell me to close the discussion and take no for an answer until after this lengthy silent treatment, which extended to all communication with her and rendered all but BaRP play out of reach.)

By the way, covert punishment is a form of abuse. It’s not a mere red flag, it’s one of the crevasses that red flags warn you against. It’s wrong and abusive even if you do it to a horrible person like myself.

okay i don’t think this is great behavior. but not every instance of someone ignoring you is abusive. the silent treatment can absolutely be abusive in intimate relationships – familial, romantic, friendship, etc. but it is utilized for specific purposes when it’s abusive: controlling someone, breaking them down, punishing them, belittling them.

a hobby acquaintance ignoring you because you’ve made yourself repeatedly unpleasant for them to deal with could be immature, it could be irresponsible, it could even be assholeish. but i am hard-pressed to call the specific scenario you’ve described as abusive.

[Gashlycrumb]

@Roz said:
, breaking them down, punishing them, belittling them.

ETA: Like the vast majority of abusive behaviour on MUs, which have an off-switch, this crevasse is an ankle-twister, not a terrifying fall to crushing injuries. If you decide that truth means it doesn’t legitimately qualify as abuse, I won’t argue.

[Apos]

@Gashlycrumb said:

Siren informed me that she deliberately ignored all communication from me for half a year because I “don’t take no for an answer,” so she “can’t be bothered” with me. I am legitimately extremely annoying, but what she didn’t do is tell me that I was being punished or why,

(Nor indeed did she tell me to close the discussion and take no for an answer until after this lengthy silent treatment, which extended to all communication with her and rendered all but BaRP play out of reach.)

By the way, covert punishment is a form of abuse. It’s not a mere red flag, it’s one of the crevasses that red flags warn you against. It’s wrong and abusive even if you do it to a horrible person like myself.

If you feel an urge to defend this behaviour, please click here before you give yourself a knee-injury.

If someone is thinking, ‘Hah, I am going to ignore everything this person does to make them feel bad, and passive aggressively make them realize how upset I am at them, until they have no choice but to apologize’. Yes, that is the Silent Treatment.

If someone is thinking, ‘Every time I see this guy I want to quit the game and never return, I am going to nope out and hope he leaves me alone’. This is not the Silent Treatment, that is someone very much hoping that you take a hint on a boundary. That is not someone punishing you, that is someone wanting no relationship with you of any kind ever, and they owe you nothing. Idk if you paypal’d them money for GMing and they ghosted you or something, but if you did not, then expecting that and then calling them an abuser because they would not deal with your shit is more than a little fucked up. I think it is better to tell someone that you will not interact with them, and they might be wasting their time, but it is not owed.

I do not think it would be abusive to ban you. It just isn’t. It would be saying, ‘we do not get along, best of luck in your future endeavors’. There is nothing stopping you from just making a new game and going and doing, and you frankly should if you do not get along with staff to that degree. I would never play on a game where staff obviously could not stand me, and that you do is absolutely mind boggling to me.

[MidnightCreature]

@Roz said:

okay i don’t think this is great behavior. but not every instance of someone ignoring you is abusive. the silent treatment can absolutely be abusive in intimate relationships – familial, romantic, friendship, etc. but it is utilized for specific purposes when it’s abusive: controlling someone, breaking them down, punishing them, belittling them.

a hobby acquaintance ignoring you because you’ve made yourself repeatedly unpleasant for them to deal with could be immature, it could be irresponsible, it could even be assholeish. but i am hard-pressed to call the specific scenario you’ve described as abusive.

I’m generally in agreement with this but with the caveat that the the dynamics are often askew when you’re dealing with a scenario that involves a power imbalance. Namely between someone equipped with a staff tag and administrative privileges.

Ultimately I have no idea what @gashlycrumb was so persistent about or what their particular situation was but added context there could potentially be meaningful. I am going to assume good faith and the Crumb was reaching out to Siren in a way that was perfectly normal for a player to do.

[Muscle Car]

@MidnightCreature All your years of hard work snatched up by staff, your name stripped from it and your character banned? Maybe some of the current staff did learn a thing or two from Sundance before she " " “left” " " (source: literally happened to me and my IRL partner a few years ago, though the attempt to access your Google Docs is a low they didn’t even try with me). And now with LLMs slithering into the mix? Talk about a race to the bottom.

[Roz]

@Gashlycrumb said:

@Roz said:
, breaking them down, punishing them, belittling them.

someone trying to avoid you is not doing those things. like, unless you have additional context to add to indicate that these actions were taken to punish you and not to simply — not have to interact with you.

@MidnightCreature said in Liberation Drama!?:
Ultimately I have no idea what @gashlycrumb was so persistent about or what their particular situation was but added context there could potentially be meaningful. I am going to assume good faith and the Crumb was reaching out to Siren in a way that was perfectly normal for a player to do.

i mean…i feel that i am responding to how gashly characterized the situation themselves. in which they seemed to agree that they were being a difficult player. they presented the complaint as “you repeatedly wouldn’t take no for an answer” (which is not normal good player behavior) and didn’t refute the characteristic. so i am taking their presentation in good faith. just not agreeing with the resulting descriptor.

[Gashlycrumb]

@Apos said:

I do not think it would be abusive to ban you. It just isn’

You are absolutely correct. It’s not abusive to ban someone because you don’t want to deal with them. I don’t even think it really matters what it is about them that causes that. I didn’t get banned, though.

@Roz This is the GM that I need to do anything that needs a GM. They withhold all of this service interminably because I annoy them but leave me to believe I am in the queue. They did not tell me I annoyed them or that they were doing this because of it. They knew I had been frustrated by this long term.

@MidnightCreature said:

Ultimately I have no idea what @gashlycrumb was so persistent about

There’s an assumption that I was super-persistent about anything. It actually had to do with a stat that I was approved with by mistake. I asked to get it turned into something allowed, and for advice about what to do with it. Siren renamed it but didn’t advise and left the necessary info blank and stopped responding. Maybe six weeks later I poked it and she said she hadn’t responded because she thought it was finished and closed it, but I still had the blank so I tried again. Then we had a new sphere GM who asked me to submit something during her brief tenure. Six months pass, I’ve got newer unrelated stuff stale in the queue but zero return contact.

[Gashlycrumb]

@Roz said:

i mean…i feel that i am responding to how gashly characterized the situation themselves. in which they seemed to agree that they were being a difficult player.

My bad. I don’t agree that I am a difficult player. I think the opposite. But if you find me annoying, who am I to say you’re wrong? And you still shouldn’t cheat at RPGs to avoid annoying people when you’re the one who can just tell them to leave the table and avoid them properly.

[Roz]

@Gashlycrumb said:
@Roz This is the GM that I need to do anything that needs a GM. They withhold all of this service interminably because I annoy them but leave me to believe I am in the queue. They did not tell me I annoyed them or that they were doing this because of it. They knew I had been frustrated by this long term.

okay. bad behavior? sure. still not abuse.

@Gashlycrumb said:

@Roz said:

i mean…i feel that i am responding to how gashly characterized the situation themselves. in which they seemed to agree that they were being a difficult player.

My bad. I don’t agree that I am a difficult player. I think the opposite. But if you find me annoying, who am I to say you’re wrong?

i don’t know that i’ve ever played on a game with you. you called yourself “legitimately extremely annoying.”

And you still shouldn’t cheat at RPGs to avoid annoying people when you’re the one who can just tell them to leave the table and avoid them properly.

yes, you shouldn’t cheat at things. (what behavior that you’ve described is the cheating???) cheating at an RPG is, again, not abuse.

[Gashlycrumb]

@Roz I have already ceded the “It’s Not Abuse” Point. Call it something else, I will adapt, it’s not my call.

i don’t know that i’ve ever played on a game with you. you called yourself “legitimately extremely annoying.”

I know there are some people on here who find me extremely annoying. Who am I to say they are wrong? I over-explain shit and I write these +requests that are too damn long and then I go, “But no, that’s not what I mean, I’m sorry,” and do it all over again, and I talk funny and I’m moody and I do other annoying shit like fail at sarcasm.

Are you not annoying?

Even if I was annoying in other, worse ways, like Super Lice and Eternal Stench, covert punishment is messed up.

ETA: It’s cheating to refuse a PC their turn.

[Roz]

@Gashlycrumb said:

@Roz I have already ceded the “It’s Not Abuse” Point. Call it something else, I will adapt, it’s not my call.

i hadn’t read your replies as such. that’s really the only part i was arguing, so godspeed

I know there are some people on here who find me extremely annoying. Who am I to say they are wrong? I over-explain shit and I write these +requests that are too damn long and then I go, “But no, that’s not what I mean, I’m sorry,” and do it all over again, and I talk funny and I’m moody and I do other annoying shit like fail at sarcasm.

okay. i mentioned it in the context of you presenting the response you eventually received (the “you don’t take no for an answer and i didnt’ want to deal”) and then seemed to connect it with “i am indeed very annoying” so i took that to mean you didn’t disagree with the idea that you were being a difficult player to deal with. that’s all. i just meant that i was going off of your words.

Are you not annoying?

lol probably?

[Gashlycrumb]

@Roz said:

i hadn’t read your replies as such. that’s really the only part i was arguing, so godspeed

This kind of thing is probably in part responsible for me seeming to refuse to “take no for an answer,” but it’s really unpredictable who this will come up with, unnerving when that changes seemingly at the drop of a hat, and has been completely largely absent in every aspect of my life except the MU-related since I was like, 24.

ETA that I do try, at times even so far as asking AI to check my tone and clarity for me, which isn’t helpful either, because it always says more or less what I already think but things still go pear-shaped.

[MidnightCreature]

@Third-Eye !

So I was looking for a version of this that still had the timestamp in the screenshot from when I uploaded it to the game boards. The images under the Spoiler tags are INCREDIBLY large but I am but a forum noob so I’m not sure how to break up the formatting.

Here’s my write-up…
||SeptWriteupShuffle Version.png||

Soon after I uploaded this, it was removed by Siren. Who then responded to me in a hostile way about it.

Sometime later this version appeared…
!||SirenVersionPart1.png||
||||

I paged her soon after her version went up on the boards…
||18:00:24.290 You paged Siren with ‘Aside from the part about Only-Ghosts that is almost identical to what I wrote.’.
18:01:05.286 Siren(S) pages: Well I’m glad we’re on the same page! The only part I remembered from yours was the ‘Don’t fuck it up’ part, which I included as a nod to you for your amusement.
18:06:10.734 You paged Siren with ‘Thank you, I guess. Though I might have liked a drafting credit for the work I put in?’.
18:07:06.141 Siren(S) pages: We didn’t use your work, Addison. That was created by Kraken and I, and neither of us have access to what you wrote.
18:07:37.810 You paged Siren with ‘Are you saying you don’t have access to the logs from when you read it?’.
18:07:59.983 Siren(S) pages: No, I don’t log things outside of scenes. And by the time we started writing it, it was lost in my backlog.||
(I know I have a screenshot of this transcript from somewhere but I haven’t found it yet.)

Siren initially acknowledges having seen my original manuscript and even says that she remembered a specific part of it well enough to deliberately incorporate it into the new version. Once I ask about if I could be given drafting credit, however, she becomes noticeably more defensive about it.

It could ~in theory~ have been rewritten entirely by hand, but there are several red flags that resemble typical LLM-assisted rewriting, especially the kind of output produced when a source is fed into ChatGPT and asked to be condensed or given a different tone. So believe they did, knowing what I do about how LLMs process files.

Siren’s version repeatedly uses “it’s not X, it’s Y” phrasing and there are several places where one of those statements appears to connect two ideas that don’t really logically follow from one another, along with vague affirmative language about hope, unity, growth, etc etc. This is, in my experience, consistent with the kind of stuff you get that shows up when an existing document is run through an LLM and a rewrite is requested. (This is too tragic! Make it sound more affirmative!)

I don’t know which one of them fed my write-up to the Slop Machine, Siren claims that they both worked on it together.

After this happened there have been plenty of other posts showing up on the BB which showed suspect signs of LLM use, or at least extremely low effort. (ChatGPT give me ten plot hooks!). There have been multiple instances where Kraken spends time game on praising the use of LLMs.

Kraken mentioned on channel that he intended to use ChatGPT to rewrite or rework the website/wiki. The website contains close to six years of accumulated design work, setting material, independently developed content, and project history from various people. Even as a “joke” I find it deeply disrespectful to the hours of labor and love people put into the project. Effectively stripping down years of setting material and replacing it with low-effort slop.

In a different conversation with him, he told me that creating new content was a waste of time and he was fine with borrowing material from other games. I am pretty well aware of how Sundance would feel about this(Badly!). So he’s gone on the record to say he’s pretty fine to helping himself to other people’s work even when it doesn’t relate to an LLM.

Unfortunately this is not the only issue I’ve had over the years in regards to how Siren acknowledges(or more appropriately doesn’t) me and my work for the the game. This is simply one of the more annoying incidents.

[MidnightCreature]

Apparently you are only allowed so many spoilers…

Alas!

[Gashlycrumb]

[Kestrel]

@MidnightCreature said:
Kraken mentioned on channel that he intended to use ChatGPT to rewrite or rework the website/wiki.

[Gashlycrumb]

Because it’s the only way to fix this?