High-stakes competitive PvP isn’t really my thing, but I can see how it could be appealing if it were done in a way that made it easy to jump in, easy to come back after a character gets killed, easy to resolve conflicts between characters without needing staff intervention, and that had pretty even game balance so that the PvP fights were actually challenging rather than just one-sided gankfests, and so that no single character or group of characters remained “safe” for very long.

And WoD just seems like a really counterintuitive choice for something like that.

• It has complex and convoluted rules that often differ significantly between spheres and that are a frequent source of arguments among players.
• Character generation is complex and time-consuming.
• WoD game balance is legendarily poor, both between splats and even between individual characters in the same splat.
• WoD puts a heavy focus on personal storytelling, so players tend to get more invested in their individual characters, and losing them feels like more of a hit.

Some of these things could be fixed! You could trim down the number of available options into a much smaller set that were reasonably balanced against one another and that reduced the time needed for character creation and the need for significant staff oversight. You could excise or rewrite some of things that make combat time-consuming and complex. You could throw out the idea of personal storytelling entirely and approve or deny characters strictly on the basis of whether their math adds up. You could, in short, make the process of getting into the game, participating into the game, and getting back into the game a lot more like popular PvP video games.

I have never played Fortnite, but I really doubt that it (or any other popular PvP game) makes you sit out for several hours working on a new character when you get killed. When death is a frequent occurrence, then the amount of investment that death costs a player needs to be smaller. The more common it is, the easier it has to be to get back into things. WoD is the opposite of that.

@Pyrephox said in MU* Wishlists:

I’d really love to see more single-sphere (or Mortal) focused games with staff who were really passionate about running those stories. More often what I see is “here are the most popular spheres or the spheres that people have loudly demanded, anyway, but the game staff actually only feels comfortable doing anything with X and Y sphere, so Z sphere, while technically extant, is basically stuck with whoever decides to take one for the team until they burn out”.

I suspect there’s also a lot of “Well, when the game started, we had someone who was super passionate about running Highlander: The Quickening, but they eventually got overwhelmed with <thing> and had to step down, so now one of the other staff members who isn’t really enthused about it and doesn’t care much for a lot of what Original Highlander Staffer did and honestly doesn’t have the time because of the sphere they’re really interested in running, but we didn’t want to just shut down the sphere and leave all the players who are invested in it in the lurch.”

@Cobalt “People trying to get me fired/kicked off of a game” is definitely a peeve, though.

I agree with both of you! I enjoy not knowing everything OOC about other characters so I can discover it in play, and I enjoy knowing enough OOC about other characters to make RP happen.

If I’m playing in the Vampire sphere, I find it useful to know who the other vampire characters are, so I know who to look for if I want to talk IC about vampire stuff without a lot of hemming and hawing to make sure we’re not breaking the IC Masquerade by doing so. On the other hand, I don’t want to know what their sheets look like or what their backstories are because I enjoy that mystery.

But I’m also pretty sure everyone draws the line dividing “things they like to know about OOC” from “things they like to not know about OOC” in a different place. OOC Masq is a spectrum.

1. When running a game, please pick a game system that you actually want to run and are more or less happy with as written. Why aggravate yourself and your players by trying to houserule Dungeons and Dragons into feeling like Everway? Wouldn’t everyone be happier if you just used Everway to start with?

2. Because it’s basically inevitable that there’ll be some aspects of your chosen game system you’re unhappy with, try to identify them and houserule them away before you open the floodgates to the world.

3. If there’s something you missed in steps one and two and you don’t notice it until the game’s been open for a while, consider just leaving it alone, even if it irks you. If it hasn’t come to your attention by now, it might not actually be as much of a problem as you think.

4. If you are absolutely certain that the thing you missed for several years is a problem worth houseruling away, at least try to set out all your new houserules at once and ideally include some things that will make players happy along with them.

I get it. Some game systems are kind of broken. Some things don’t start to become problematic until a game’s been going for a while. It happens, and I support fixing problems that really need to be fixed. I just don’t want to play Calvinball, you know?

@Cobalt #teamShadowheart

@Cygnus said in pvp vs pvp:

A PVP game would definitely need all these things, but I don’t think we should throw away the narrative aspects as well.

A major element of why no one is running a WoD game that does these things – aside from the fact that a lot of people who are capable of running them don’t want to, for whatever reason – is probably that it would be really hard, and would by its very nature make getting into the game more difficult for new players.

Just running a WoD game at all, by the books (as much as running WoD “by the books” is even possible, considering the number of things that are unclear, left out, or outright contradictory), is not an easy task. To make an PvP-focused WoD game that has fast and easy cgen, good game balance, and straightforward combat would add to that the need to radically rewrite and rebalance the whole WoD game system.

That’s a massive level of effort, and what you’d end up with is likely to be something that’s just enough like the WoD that potential players already know to be confusing and frustrating. (“What do you mean, Celerity doesn’t add additional actions?”). You’d basically be asking players to learn an entire new game system that’s kind of like WoD, but different enough that they can’t rely on their pre-existing knowledge of it. And at that point, why not just start with a game system that’s better at what you want it to do than WoD is?

@Pacha said in MU Peeves Thread:

I think it is nice that games are a lot more chill these days, but I think it probably speaks volumes about the general state of WoD games that my most comfortable state is to be completely under the staff’s radar because staff on a WoD game paying close attention to what you’re doing is almost universally bad.

This is more or less how I feel, also; I can’t think of more than one or two times in mumble years when being noticed by staff on a WoD game has led to something positive. Usually it’s at best going back to status quo ante.

So … suggestions for how could staff members behave that wouldn’t lead people to dread getting noticed by them? Other than “interact with players for reasons that aren’t taking things they enjoy away from them”?

I agree with both of you! I enjoy not knowing everything OOC about other characters so I can discover it in play, and I enjoy knowing enough OOC about other characters to make RP happen.

If I’m playing in the Vampire sphere, I find it useful to know who the other vampire characters are, so I know who to look for if I want to talk IC about vampire stuff without a lot of hemming and hawing to make sure we’re not breaking the IC Masquerade by doing so. On the other hand, I don’t want to know what their sheets look like or what their backstories are because I enjoy that mystery.

But I’m also pretty sure everyone draws the line dividing “things they like to know about OOC” from “things they like to not know about OOC” in a different place. OOC Masq is a spectrum.

@Cygnus said in pvp vs pvp:

A PVP game would definitely need all these things, but I don’t think we should throw away the narrative aspects as well.

A major element of why no one is running a WoD game that does these things – aside from the fact that a lot of people who are capable of running them don’t want to, for whatever reason – is probably that it would be really hard, and would by its very nature make getting into the game more difficult for new players.

Just running a WoD game at all, by the books (as much as running WoD “by the books” is even possible, considering the number of things that are unclear, left out, or outright contradictory), is not an easy task. To make an PvP-focused WoD game that has fast and easy cgen, good game balance, and straightforward combat would add to that the need to radically rewrite and rebalance the whole WoD game system.

That’s a massive level of effort, and what you’d end up with is likely to be something that’s just enough like the WoD that potential players already know to be confusing and frustrating. (“What do you mean, Celerity doesn’t add additional actions?”). You’d basically be asking players to learn an entire new game system that’s kind of like WoD, but different enough that they can’t rely on their pre-existing knowledge of it. And at that point, why not just start with a game system that’s better at what you want it to do than WoD is?

High-stakes competitive PvP isn’t really my thing, but I can see how it could be appealing if it were done in a way that made it easy to jump in, easy to come back after a character gets killed, easy to resolve conflicts between characters without needing staff intervention, and that had pretty even game balance so that the PvP fights were actually challenging rather than just one-sided gankfests, and so that no single character or group of characters remained “safe” for very long.

And WoD just seems like a really counterintuitive choice for something like that.

• It has complex and convoluted rules that often differ significantly between spheres and that are a frequent source of arguments among players.
• Character generation is complex and time-consuming.
• WoD game balance is legendarily poor, both between splats and even between individual characters in the same splat.
• WoD puts a heavy focus on personal storytelling, so players tend to get more invested in their individual characters, and losing them feels like more of a hit.

Some of these things could be fixed! You could trim down the number of available options into a much smaller set that were reasonably balanced against one another and that reduced the time needed for character creation and the need for significant staff oversight. You could excise or rewrite some of things that make combat time-consuming and complex. You could throw out the idea of personal storytelling entirely and approve or deny characters strictly on the basis of whether their math adds up. You could, in short, make the process of getting into the game, participating into the game, and getting back into the game a lot more like popular PvP video games.

I have never played Fortnite, but I really doubt that it (or any other popular PvP game) makes you sit out for several hours working on a new character when you get killed. When death is a frequent occurrence, then the amount of investment that death costs a player needs to be smaller. The more common it is, the easier it has to be to get back into things. WoD is the opposite of that.

Single-splat games have a lot of benefits. They’re easier to run, especially because they tend to be smaller. Smaller size and tighter focus can make for more personal storytelling and more individual attention for the player base. (Not that they always do, but they can.) And you can have a bit more freedom in terms of how you construct your game world – if you want your Werewolf game to have vampire bad guys who aren’t really like the Camarilla and also aren’t really like the Sabbat, it’s an awful lot easier to do that when you don’t have to totally rearchitect a PC Vampire sphere in order to do that.

Kitchen-sink games are harder to build and run. But they do have an advantage in that all-important “engagement” factor: because they tend to be larger, it’s usually easier to find someone to RP with when you feel like playing. Even if it’s someone from a different, possibly hostile sphere who you can’t talk shop with, there’s a lot to be said for making it easier to get to the “roleplaying” part. And while yes you could have a single-sphere game that has that level of engagement, I think it’s easier with kitchen-sink games just because you’re maximizing the number of people who your elevator pitch will grab onto.

While I might say I prefer the former, and I’ve had a good time on some single-sphere games, according to my revealed preferences I value being able to find RP easily more than I value the potentially more personalized and more individualized experience of a single-splat game.

@Pacha said in MU Peeves Thread:

I think it is nice that games are a lot more chill these days, but I think it probably speaks volumes about the general state of WoD games that my most comfortable state is to be completely under the staff’s radar because staff on a WoD game paying close attention to what you’re doing is almost universally bad.

This is more or less how I feel, also; I can’t think of more than one or two times in mumble years when being noticed by staff on a WoD game has led to something positive. Usually it’s at best going back to status quo ante.

So … suggestions for how could staff members behave that wouldn’t lead people to dread getting noticed by them? Other than “interact with players for reasons that aren’t taking things they enjoy away from them”?

@Roz said in IC Consequences and OOC Acceptance:

I actually think it’s hugely common that players do not have an entirely accurate read on how chill they are with consequences.

Most of us are really bad about putting ourselves in other people’s shoes, and what someone else thinks is a reasonable consequence may not even show up on our radar as a possible reaction.

@Cobalt #teamShadowheart

1. When running a game, please pick a game system that you actually want to run and are more or less happy with as written. Why aggravate yourself and your players by trying to houserule Dungeons and Dragons into feeling like Everway? Wouldn’t everyone be happier if you just used Everway to start with?

2. Because it’s basically inevitable that there’ll be some aspects of your chosen game system you’re unhappy with, try to identify them and houserule them away before you open the floodgates to the world.

3. If there’s something you missed in steps one and two and you don’t notice it until the game’s been open for a while, consider just leaving it alone, even if it irks you. If it hasn’t come to your attention by now, it might not actually be as much of a problem as you think.

4. If you are absolutely certain that the thing you missed for several years is a problem worth houseruling away, at least try to set out all your new houserules at once and ideally include some things that will make players happy along with them.

I get it. Some game systems are kind of broken. Some things don’t start to become problematic until a game’s been going for a while. It happens, and I support fixing problems that really need to be fixed. I just don’t want to play Calvinball, you know?

@Cobalt “People trying to get me fired/kicked off of a game” is definitely a peeve, though.

@Pyrephox said in MU* Wishlists:

I’d really love to see more single-sphere (or Mortal) focused games with staff who were really passionate about running those stories. More often what I see is “here are the most popular spheres or the spheres that people have loudly demanded, anyway, but the game staff actually only feels comfortable doing anything with X and Y sphere, so Z sphere, while technically extant, is basically stuck with whoever decides to take one for the team until they burn out”.

I suspect there’s also a lot of “Well, when the game started, we had someone who was super passionate about running Highlander: The Quickening, but they eventually got overwhelmed with <thing> and had to step down, so now one of the other staff members who isn’t really enthused about it and doesn’t care much for a lot of what Original Highlander Staffer did and honestly doesn’t have the time because of the sphere they’re really interested in running, but we didn’t want to just shut down the sphere and leave all the players who are invested in it in the lurch.”