Liberation MUSH has serious policy problems. Specifically, when people report controlling, manipulative OOC behavior or else sex-pesting, the game’s head staff member, Sundance, typically does not do anything. In fact, she might even blame the victim.

Further, it is against Liberation’s rules for a player who is not the victim of such behavior to report it. For example, if your friend falls foul of controlling behavior, it is a violation of game policies for your friend to tell you, and it is a violation of game policies for you to tell Sundance.

Finally, no game staff, or storytellers, other than Sundance are permitted to be involved in handling these issues, so players have no option but to go to her.

I personally experienced this some time ago, in a situation involving a player who is the sometime subject of discussion on this forum, though I am reluctant to dig up detail. It was a bad experience. I told myself that my situation was a once-off, that perhaps there was inadequate evidence. However, I have seen incidents since then involving other players. Other players have told me of deeply problematic behavior that has gone unaddressed.

I know that at least one member of Liberation’s staff is a regular poster on these forums. He may come to say that people should take the issues to Sundance. Even if Sundance was handling problems properly, I do not think the game’s staff realize how difficult it is, at times, for victims of such behavior to come forward directly to a stranger. It is harder still when that stranger has a reputation for dismissing problems without taking action and, worse, of blaming victims.

I realize that I am screaming into the void here and that it is extremely unlikely that anything will change. Perhaps it might at least warn others.

If Sundance happens to read this, please reconsider this entire approach. You are demonstrably not able for this specific aspect of running the game, which in itself is not a fault if you own it and delegate it to somebody who is. The policy of enforced silence on the part of a victim’s friends is damaging and should be removed, too.

I’m not going to kid myself into expecting change, but I can hope.

@hellfrog Hopefully this clarifies it. Bb 1/21

"If you have an OOC problem with someone or something, bring it to me. If you don’t trust me to handle it, then go play somewhere else. Because the telephone bullshit often ends up wasting a lot of my time.

None of you can ever solve anything OOCly between yourselves - so don’t try. And don’t waste other player’s time by bitching at them or trying to stir shit between them and others.

No one else needs to hear about your concerns, and it is no player’s prerogatives to decide who they need to bring these matters to. I am the only one on this game that addresses OOC disputes or concerns…except in very limited circumstances where my Directors handle specifically narrative or mechanic concerns within their spheres.

Let me make it crystal clear: Seeking to OOCly ‘warn’ or ‘vent’ or ‘bitch’ out other players is a breach of policy around here. And if the person you’re warning, venting to or bitching out, takes it to me (which they should), I will pull your bit. It doesn’t matter if it happened here or on Discord or anywhere else, if it still ends up eventually making trouble for me to deal with."

I appreciate everyone’s thoughts. Getting that out of my system and finding that a bunch of people with an outside perspective thought it was problematic was cathartic. Thank you.

@Coin This is the specific policy post. It’s bb 1/22, posted on 7 June.

"* Proxy Complaints: I don’t want to hear complaints made on behalf of other players. If someone has a problem here, they need to bring it to me personally. If they don’t trust me enough…fine. A) I don’t see how you coming to me on their behalf changes anything in that case, and B) I probably can’t do anything for them anyways, if that’s their attitude.

But that’s not usually what it is about. Although it might be painted that way. It’s virtually always about the proxy complainer looking for an excuse to dig in about someone they don’t like, or some other agenda. Which is fine. It’s human nature to look for such opportunities. But I’m much too busy to keep tolerating that particular facet of human nature. I’d rather be telling story for someone, than have to listen to yet another complaint on behalf of another player who is supposedly too timid or frightened to come to me themselves. (Especially since that’s not the case 90% of the time.)"

@Roz You are, of course, right. I went into the place somehow oblivious to it and had to discover it ‘organically’, so to speak.

@hellfrog said in Liberation MUSH:

@Roz said in Liberation MUSH:

#StopPlayingOnGamesWithShittyStaff2023

for real. Read a book. Join a discord rp chat. Make your own mush! develop a laudanum addiction - anything

All sound options.

An event finished with a GM’s player character being sad and the GM forcing all the regular players’ characters to be sad too. Don’t do that. It’s narcissistic and weird. If every time a player’s character was sad they wrote that now everyone else is sad too, that would be rightly ignored.

The alternative I guess is that it was really powerful magic and the GM’s player character had received abilities inaccessible to all regular player characters. Still really weird though. The character wasn’t at or relevant to the event until suddenly a GM wanted to put her center-stage. She came at the end to be sad and totally eclipse anything player characters were doing or feeling.

Don’t take agency away from players.

An event finished with a GM’s player character being sad and the GM forcing all the regular players’ characters to be sad too. Don’t do that. It’s narcissistic and weird. If every time a player’s character was sad they wrote that now everyone else is sad too, that would be rightly ignored.

The alternative I guess is that it was really powerful magic and the GM’s player character had received abilities inaccessible to all regular player characters. Still really weird though. The character wasn’t at or relevant to the event until suddenly a GM wanted to put her center-stage. She came at the end to be sad and totally eclipse anything player characters were doing or feeling.

Don’t take agency away from players.

Interestingly, this was not criticised at all when Arx, an obvious point of comparison to this game, removed people for poor behavior. For example https://play.arxmush.org/comms/boards/19511/view/1455790

I did not really expect to post on this forum again, but I’m feeling well-disposed towards a game actually addressing creepy behavior. They outlined reasons at https://concordiamu.aresmush.com/forum/1/310

I appreciate everyone’s thoughts. Getting that out of my system and finding that a bunch of people with an outside perspective thought it was problematic was cathartic. Thank you.

@Roz You are, of course, right. I went into the place somehow oblivious to it and had to discover it ‘organically’, so to speak.

@hellfrog said in Liberation MUSH:

@Roz said in Liberation MUSH:

#StopPlayingOnGamesWithShittyStaff2023

for real. Read a book. Join a discord rp chat. Make your own mush! develop a laudanum addiction - anything

All sound options.

@hellfrog Hopefully this clarifies it. Bb 1/21

"If you have an OOC problem with someone or something, bring it to me. If you don’t trust me to handle it, then go play somewhere else. Because the telephone bullshit often ends up wasting a lot of my time.

None of you can ever solve anything OOCly between yourselves - so don’t try. And don’t waste other player’s time by bitching at them or trying to stir shit between them and others.

No one else needs to hear about your concerns, and it is no player’s prerogatives to decide who they need to bring these matters to. I am the only one on this game that addresses OOC disputes or concerns…except in very limited circumstances where my Directors handle specifically narrative or mechanic concerns within their spheres.

Let me make it crystal clear: Seeking to OOCly ‘warn’ or ‘vent’ or ‘bitch’ out other players is a breach of policy around here. And if the person you’re warning, venting to or bitching out, takes it to me (which they should), I will pull your bit. It doesn’t matter if it happened here or on Discord or anywhere else, if it still ends up eventually making trouble for me to deal with."

@Coin This is the specific policy post. It’s bb 1/22, posted on 7 June.

"* Proxy Complaints: I don’t want to hear complaints made on behalf of other players. If someone has a problem here, they need to bring it to me personally. If they don’t trust me enough…fine. A) I don’t see how you coming to me on their behalf changes anything in that case, and B) I probably can’t do anything for them anyways, if that’s their attitude.

But that’s not usually what it is about. Although it might be painted that way. It’s virtually always about the proxy complainer looking for an excuse to dig in about someone they don’t like, or some other agenda. Which is fine. It’s human nature to look for such opportunities. But I’m much too busy to keep tolerating that particular facet of human nature. I’d rather be telling story for someone, than have to listen to yet another complaint on behalf of another player who is supposedly too timid or frightened to come to me themselves. (Especially since that’s not the case 90% of the time.)"

Liberation MUSH has serious policy problems. Specifically, when people report controlling, manipulative OOC behavior or else sex-pesting, the game’s head staff member, Sundance, typically does not do anything. In fact, she might even blame the victim.

Further, it is against Liberation’s rules for a player who is not the victim of such behavior to report it. For example, if your friend falls foul of controlling behavior, it is a violation of game policies for your friend to tell you, and it is a violation of game policies for you to tell Sundance.

Finally, no game staff, or storytellers, other than Sundance are permitted to be involved in handling these issues, so players have no option but to go to her.

I personally experienced this some time ago, in a situation involving a player who is the sometime subject of discussion on this forum, though I am reluctant to dig up detail. It was a bad experience. I told myself that my situation was a once-off, that perhaps there was inadequate evidence. However, I have seen incidents since then involving other players. Other players have told me of deeply problematic behavior that has gone unaddressed.

I know that at least one member of Liberation’s staff is a regular poster on these forums. He may come to say that people should take the issues to Sundance. Even if Sundance was handling problems properly, I do not think the game’s staff realize how difficult it is, at times, for victims of such behavior to come forward directly to a stranger. It is harder still when that stranger has a reputation for dismissing problems without taking action and, worse, of blaming victims.

I realize that I am screaming into the void here and that it is extremely unlikely that anything will change. Perhaps it might at least warn others.

If Sundance happens to read this, please reconsider this entire approach. You are demonstrably not able for this specific aspect of running the game, which in itself is not a fault if you own it and delegate it to somebody who is. The policy of enforced silence on the part of a victim’s friends is damaging and should be removed, too.

I’m not going to kid myself into expecting change, but I can hope.