Witcher MUSH Design
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@DarthSmegma said in Witcher MUSH Design:
3: Give out IN-GAME CURRENCY for +noms, @votes, or whatever. This might literally be ‘currency’ in its simplest form. Or more interestingly, some sort of ‘prestige system.’ For example, a character with 1000 votes is ‘more famous’ or a ‘bigger deal’ than a character with 10 votes. This makes for an objective way to choose which character gets to be Mayor of Shinytown, or Head of the Cat School, or Chief of the Lodge of Sorceresses, or Most Famous Bard in Skellige, etc.
I am vehemently against the concept of any sort of coded prestige system as it can be and almost inevitably will be “gamed” by people, to ridiculous degrees that can be pretty unfair. No matter what limitations you think you’ve put in to prevent it, there’s a specific kind of obnoxious player with loads of free time who will basically dedicate their life to finding a way around it just to one-up everyone else, and rewarding that kind of player adds a lot of toxicity to your game’s culture.
Tying it to any sort of nom/voting system is especially ripe for abuse. Hell, noms/votes period are already just a Bad Idea imho, and I genuinely wish they never caught on in the hobby.
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I think, when one is designing systems, they cannot be designed to be immune to abuse. They should try, as best as possible, to mitigate the impact such abuse can have. Such as limiting the number of available votes, etc.
It not perfect system, obviously, but it’s made by humans so it’s never perfect. Except me, I was made by humans and I’m darn close.
He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
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@Pavel said in Witcher MUSH Design:
I think, when one is designing systems, they cannot be designed to be immune to abuse.
That’s true, but some systems have been tried so many times that we kinda know they’re abuse magnets. It’s good to be cognizant of those.
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@Faraday said in Witcher MUSH Design:
@Pavel said in Witcher MUSH Design:
I think, when one is designing systems, they cannot be designed to be immune to abuse.
That’s true, but some systems have been tried so many times that we kinda know they’re abuse magnets. It’s good to be cognizant of those.
Oh, absolutely. I’m just trying to nix the inevitable “every system can be abused to blah blah blah.”
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@Pavel said in Witcher MUSH Design:
I think, when one is designing systems, they cannot be designed to be immune to abuse. They should try, as best as possible, to mitigate the impact such abuse can have.
Which is why I feel so strongly about prestige being a coded system at all. It’s a concept with a lot of potential impact on game balance and fairness, and we do actually have a pretty popular case study on the amount of sheer nerd rage it’s generated over the years, lol.
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Maybe prestige is a loaded term for people. A whole bunch of games have ‘karma’ which is basically the same thing.
I’ve staffed on games where getting awarded ‘karma’ for things like helping out with the wiki enabled players to do things like app restricted characters.
Sometimes ‘karma’ is tied to the number of votes players get, especially on games that have no XP at all, like superhero games.
Nobody is actually suggesting better ways to handle the acquisition of experience points, coded objects, and in-game assignments involving responsibilities (like running a faction.) This is what the original post was asking for.
It’s super easy to poke holes in a suggestion. What are the BETTER ways to handle these things?
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@DarthSmegma Before anyone brings it up, no I don’t think it’s a good idea to give players in-game karma for helping out with the wiki… that did not work well.
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@DarthSmegma said in Witcher MUSH Design:
Nobody is actually suggesting better ways
I see at least three posters in the last dozen or so posts that have suggestions on how things can be handled, and also, people are sharing their experiences with the proposed systems, not just “poking holes”.
If you don’t LIKE peoples’ input fine, but those people still had suggestions.
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@DarthSmegma said in Witcher MUSH Design:
Nobody is actually suggesting better ways to handle the acquisition of experience points, coded objects, and in-game assignments involving responsibilities (like running a faction.) This is what the original post was asking for.
It’s super easy to poke holes in a suggestion. What are the BETTER ways to handle these things?
Only XP/advancement was really brought up in the original post, and I think a number of people have expressed thoughts on how to handle that?
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@DarthSmegma said in Witcher MUSH Design:
Nobody is actually suggesting better ways to handle the acquisition of experience points, coded objects, and in-game assignments involving responsibilities (like running a faction.) This is what the original post was asking for.
For any system, you have to:
- Figure out what your GOAL is in systemizing it (versus just leaving it freeform for RP, which many games do).
- Determine whether the system you create supports that goal.
- Evaluate whether the cons associated with that system cause other problems that are WORSE than benefits you get for your goal.
There are a zillion potential goals for an XP system, many of which are mutually exclusive.
A system that rewards longevity will necessarily result in the “dino effect” unless limited. A system with progression limits will necessarily eventually result in stagnated players. A system that models the need for skill maintenance will have realism (pro for some players) at the cost of OOC effort (con for other players).
There is no one-size-fits-all system, or every game would already be using it.
And you can go through that same exercise for coded objects (which Ares games do just fine without), faction heads (which many games do just fine without), or any other system.
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Not all of the feedback was truly constructive, for sure, but even purely dissenting opinions have value. I have not digested everything as of yet but here’s some cliff notes of my headspace for those that are curious:
- I am slowly pulling back from my ‘log everything’ perspective. I think that I may end up having a report function that allows a player to highlight something problematic in a verified manner.
- I like having some extrinsic rewards. This obviously does not jive with the purity of RP for RP’s sake but whatever. I will figure something out.
- I really like the idea of consistent XP for existing rather than tying it to a specific activity. I really want to reward people for participating in a meaningful way but I do not want to expect people to be on daily. I think in the short term this means that if you don’t have /some sort of scene/ in a two week span or such you will start to get less of a return until it approaches zero. There may be a vacation mode ‘cuz life happens.’
- There will not be any nom/vote systems or any system defined notion of prestige. If you want to be well-known, get out there and be that thing.
- There won’t be classes. On a surface level I think I will set things up such that there is baseline availability of skills or whatever and then later on you can buy in to a specialization or two - or never specialize at all if you wish!
- There will be an upper cap on the amount of mechanical power you can obtain and you can not get everything. This will likely be tied back in to the specialization notion I am mulling over.
- There won’t be randomized vendors for ‘stuff’. How stuff distribution works is still a jumble in my mind but I may roughly tie it to an activity metric or something (re: extrinsic rewards for participation). Hand-me-downs will be prevented in some manner - advanced stuff requiring advanced skills or something. Who knows?
I may not always sound like it, and we may not agree, but I appreciate the suggestions and criticisms. Spending your own time to help me refine things is lovely.
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@DarthSmegma said in Witcher MUSH Design:
What are the BETTER ways to handle these things?
Biggest suggestion?
Before one makes a game, play lots of them. Or at least go on them and ask questions. What is their method for doing X, why did they choose that method, etc.
Find games, and people who like the games, like the one you want to make. It’s better to ask a pilot about aeronautical engineering than people who really like boats.
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@Istus You have a great attitude, and whatever systems you decide on, that levelheadedness and graciousness will serve you invaluably.
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I am with Pavel. Dip your toes into various games that catch your eye. It can help you get perspective on what people experience.
I am also all for you doing what you think is right for the game you want to make. Everything we say here are opinions and 20+ years experience. A lot of us are probably pretty jaded and wary of things.
My thought is to build your game like you expect lots (because games explode at times) but plot your stories with the thought you are going to have 5 people with wiggle room to expand the stories to more.
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@icanbeyourmuse said in Witcher MUSH Design:
I am also all for you doing what you think is right for the game you want to make.
Agreed. Additionally, it’d be easier to get advice if you make something that people can interact with or take apart and look at rather than react to ideas.
Thus far, we’ve been presented with some thoughts, but we don’t know how they all interconnect or why you want to do things the way you do or what it’s going to look like once it’s out of your head and onto a game.
ETA: Oh! Make the game for you rather than for an audience. You have to run it, so it’s important that you like the game. Even if nobody plays it, you’ve still made something and that’s more than most folk do.
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Biggest suggestion?
Before one makes a game, play lots of them.Eh.
Not everyone wants to play lots of games, and it’s not a prereq for running a good one.
What IS a prereq, in my opinion, is to think carefully about what you’re doing and why, to consider the consequences, and to talk through them with someone who will serve as a real sounding board and not an echo chamber.
‘What you’re doing’ encompasses a lot of things, from the xp you give out to the PCs you focus on to the story you run. I’ve seen a lot of games open that seem to have spent a lot of time on some aspects, but not others. Sometimes these games seem to figure it out midflow - nothing’s written in stone, you can learn and course-correct as you go - and sometimes they don’t.
@Istus , you’re already doing a lot of listening and thinking. Just keep doing it, and maybe find folks who are interested in the same kind of game you want to run to really hash out the details with. You might end up with something cool.
Experience helps, but man. If you want to build a game now, with what you’ve got, go for it. If we didn’t do this, no one would ever build games.
Make mistakes. Try new things. Learn from them. Talk about what happened and why with players you trust. Course correct. Try again. Keep listening.
You will never, ever build a game without mistakes that you’ll fix ‘next time’. You just do the best you can, every time.
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@Tat said in Witcher MUSH Design:
You will never, ever build a game without mistakes that you’ll fix ‘next time’. You just do the best you can, every time.
Seriously this. I’ve been running games for ages and I still feel like the line from Jurassic Park 2:
Hammond: “Don’t worry, I’m not making the same mistake twice!”
Ian: “No, you’re making all new ones!” -
I have everything I need to get to a functioning alpha now. Everything else will just have to come out in the wash.
The goal has always been to create somewhere I want to play, to avoid the problems I have experienced elsewhere, and to be in a position to create new features and fix problems as they arise. Hopefully someone else will decide that they want to put some effort in to participating as well.
If it does not work out at the very least I can take the experience and the framework, refine it, and give it another crack in the future.
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@Roz said in Witcher MUSH Design:
I often see people talk about it in a way that feels like there’s a weird annoyance that someone who is less active than they are, or someone who they don’t see RPing, should be getting any XP. Like – not talking about you specifically here, but I’ve seen people talk about this with what seems like an actual layer of offense at this idea.
Huh. I never hear that complaint first-hand. Complaints that someone who only shows up for ST’d events is getting the reward of major plot roles and ST attention while frequently present and active players get sidelined – I do see hear those, and see them get erroneously reframed as being about XP or about wanting to make everybody grind.
I quite liked the flat-rate XP regardless of if you log in, with the addition of the +vote regulated karma/luck/whatever points that you can use for rerolls or dramatic boosts.
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@Gashlycrumb said in Witcher MUSH Design:
@Roz said in Witcher MUSH Design:
I often see people talk about it in a way that feels like there’s a weird annoyance that someone who is less active than they are, or someone who they don’t see RPing, should be getting any XP. Like – not talking about you specifically here, but I’ve seen people talk about this with what seems like an actual layer of offense at this idea.
Huh. I never hear that complaint first-hand.
I mean, I was reading it in this thread, including in the thing I was directly replying to and another post earlier talking about folks getting XP for idling or some-such.
