Neo Draconis: Embrace the Weird - Discussion

[STD]

I hope this is the appropriate place for this.

The setting and idea seem interesting, but there’s a big sticking point in the Policies section: a requirement for an Ares handle.

Why is this so? If you want to identify specific players and make sure they are keeping in line with the alt policy, would not IP addresses be more full proof? I know I shudder in revulsion at the idea of the whole Ares handle thing (surely I can’t be the only one?) and it won’t keep anyone who is a problem from just creating a new one, right?

It’s also a point that the Ares website states explicitly that:
“Handles are an optional OOC identity…”

So making it a requirement to play on your game is directly in conflict with the stated goal of the handle in the first place.

Why is this policy there?

[Faraday]

@STD said in Neo Draconis: Embrace the Weird - Discussion:

So making it a requirement to play on your game is directly in conflict with the stated goal of the handle in the first place.

Philosophically I agree, though of course I have no sway over policies on individual games.

If the goal is to track alts, the Players page will reflect alts using tags as well as actual player handles, as explained in the help files:

There are two ways to get your characters to show up on the Players page:

• Link a character to your AresMUSH player handle.
• If you do not have a handle, add a profile tag to your character’s web portal profile in the form player:<playername>. Player name can be either your main character’s name or some other moniker used to tie your characters together.

Other than that, I can’t think of any reason why you’d want to require handles. Unlike requiring, say, a validated email address, handles don’t really offer any tangible benefit to staff or do anything to verify your identity. (Someone could just create a game-specific handle to meet the policy, so it accomplishes nothing.)

Handles are just a social tool for presenting yourself to the community independent of your character. They serve no administrative purpose.

[Tez]

@STD said in Neo Draconis: Embrace the Weird - Discussion:

I hope this is the appropriate place for this.

I haven’t read a thing in this thread yet besides this sentence but this IS the right place and THANK YOU for making a new thread.

[Raeras]

Thank you for airing your question @STD (and agreed with Tez, thank you for making a new thread)

I’ll admit this is actually one of the policies I have been going back and forth with myself on. It has nothing to do with the alt policy as I do state it’s required even if you only have one alt.

I think, in my mind, it stems from issues with troublemakers and bad actors in the past and the idea that knowing who you’re playing with from the jump has some kind of…I can’t think of the right word but it can put people at ease? If that makes sense.

You make a good point though. People can make new handles or use the other option of making a non-Ares player Handle (which I should clarify would also be okay)

However I’m not totally set in stone on keeping this policy. It’s not a hill I feel I need to die on.

It sounded like a good idea when I was drafting things but I don’t always have good ideas and I’ll admit that. I also can come from a place of understanding where someone might not want to link a handle (at least not right away) as I can be like that myself at time while I’m feeling places out. So I don’t have an issue tossing it into the wastebasket either.

[Raeras]

I’ve gone ahead and removed it for now and if something comes up in the future where I feel like handles (in some capacity) for everyone are necessary, I’ll address it then.

[Third Eye]

In addition to my not really understanding the reasoning behind it initially, mostly I don’t see the point, since you can just make a new handle on a new character anyway. My experience is that bad actors who you know are out there aren’t particularly good at hiding or changing their behavior if they’re still going to be a problem, so either way you’ll figure out what’s what.

I do think changing this policy was a good idea so props on listening to feedback.

[Raeras]

@Third-Eye said in Neo Draconis: Embrace the Weird - Discussion:

…My experience is that bad actors who you know are out there aren’t particularly good at hiding or changing their behavior if they’re still going to be a problem, so either way you’ll figure out what’s what…

This is so 100% true. I have had situations where I’m like ‘I know that’s got to be XYZ’ and sure enough it comes to light that it was indeed XYZ. So yeah, like I said, it sounded good when I wrote it but I’m not going to die on that hill lol

[STD]

Thank you so much for the response, @Raeras.

I’m definitely glad to see it’s one of the policies that you’re not married to, since the language involved (“You will only receive one warning”) seemed to indicate it was a hardline stance.

I think, in my mind, it stems from issues with troublemakers and bad actors in the past and the idea that knowing who you’re playing with from the jump has some kind of…I can’t think of the right word but it can put people at ease? If that makes sense.

This might be redundant now that you’ve reconsidered the policy, but I’ll make a comment about this anyway as a sort of reference for the future.

I’ve never seen an attempt like this actually benefit the victims of bad actors or troublemakers; it is always the opposite. Since bad actors and troublemakers will be happy to circumvent any attempt at linking the person to the character, but those who follow the rules will be inexorably linked, this means that the only ones who benefit from such a system are those bad actors and troublemakers who can identify and target previous victims or those they have grudges against while remaining anonymous themselves. Yeah, their behavior will eventually tell, but you’re putting your other players at risk until that happens. It’s a recipe for disaster and I’ve seen it happen every. Single. Time.

This sort of thing (among others) is why I have a pretty staunch no-outside-game contact or link-to-player policy and also why I take pains to compartmentalize and isolate every game I play. Maybe I’m a weird freak for doing this, but it has helped me navigate the shoals of MU*ing pretty peacefully ever since I enacted this personal policy of mine.

So I hope this illuminates why some would have a huge problem with this policy should you consider it again in the future.

Thanks again for the response! It’s great to see a game runner responding so well!

[Raeras]

@STD I absolutely understand where you’re coming from and I appreciate you airing your concern and adding your two cents. I think you make a good point too about the bad actors and victims being easier to target.

Like I mentioned above I can see reasons why people wouldn’t want to link a handle as well since I’ve been in that situation myself. So having another set of eyes go ‘wait, what? Why?’ and making me see I didn’t really have good reason at to ‘why’ was very helpful!

[Tributary]

@Raeras I am also running an Ares game and was tempted to institute a similar policy. I decided that trying to do that was too much like herding cats, and that I’d just encourage people to do it instead.

And it was mostly so that I could sort of keep track of who in our Discord was who on the game, because that gets confusing fast. The trouble is, since the game posts the important channels to the Discord, there’s really no need to be on Discord if you don’t want to be.

Now all I need is a way to link the forums to the Discord so that my game co-runner will not just post things to Discord and will also post on the game. Much laziness there.

[Roz]

@STD said in Neo Draconis: Embrace the Weird - Discussion:

I’ve never seen an attempt like this actually benefit the victims of bad actors or troublemakers; it is always the opposite. Since bad actors and troublemakers will be happy to circumvent any attempt at linking the person to the character, but those who follow the rules will be inexorably linked, this means that the only ones who benefit from such a system are those bad actors and troublemakers who can identify and target previous victims or those they have grudges against while remaining anonymous themselves. Yeah, their behavior will eventually tell, but you’re putting your other players at risk until that happens. It’s a recipe for disaster and I’ve seen it happen every. Single. Time.

I think this was the salient point. I know at least one person who doesn’t keep an Ares handle specifically to avoid being followed around by another player they don’t want to engage with. There are real and legitimate reasons why good actors won’t necessarily want to identify themselves in that sort of way.

But it felt really good to read through this thread and see @Raeras listening to the concerns, being thoughtful, and adjusting course. It’s always nice to see a thread feel actively constructive like this.

[Third Eye]

I will say I get the temptation because I have, with my own eyeballs, seen people I know are repeat offenders obfuscate themselves by not using handles. It’s a thing people do.

This feels like an attempt to find a code solution for a thing that just requires proactive staffing, though. And a really imperfect code solution that will be easily worked around.

I like handles for the social networking function of them and always link mine, but there are lots of good reasons not to, including not wanting people to follow you around, or just to want to try on a new skin on a game you don’t know will work without the ‘commitment’ of letting a bunch of people know you play there.

[Faraday]

@Third-Eye said in Neo Draconis: Embrace the Weird - Discussion:

I will say I get the temptation because I have, with my own eyeballs, seen people I know are repeat offenders obfuscate themselves by not using handles. It’s a thing people do.

Known repeat offenders also obfuscate themselves by just creating a new handle, though. Even IP blocking isn’t particularly effective in the modern era of ten-cent VPNs.

But props to Raeras for being open-minded about it.

[Raeras]

I just wanted to drop another note here thanking everyone for their insights on this and @STD for starting the discussion. I am a ‘worst case scenario’ kind of person and wasn’t really expecting anyone (or very few people) to join ND but we have 17 registered bits (including myself and 1 alt) and people are really running with the idea and creating things to make it their own.

And I really don’t think that would be happening if I still had the Handle policy in place. So thank you