Historical Games Round 75

[Testament]

@Faraday I will say that in absolutely no way am I trying to take away agency for those kind of stories. Or that they’re not just as valid as any other. At it’s core, I personally have no issue with that, but I also find historical fiction not interesting, and that’s a me thing I admit(reading about it is a whole other story, I enjoy reading and watching media about it). And that generally tends boil down to “It’s already been done, it’s already happened.” But just with historical fiction, I don’t do modern day. Generally, it has be so far into science fiction or fantasy that draws me into a theme or genre, mostly because it defies belief and expectations. And then I just want to read everything that I can get my hands on.

My preferences isn’t the point here, however. It’s a desire to want to be respectful to those who struggles with these issues far more than I ever will, so it’s part of me that tries to be respectful in regards towards it. When I created my game, I had a couple of major points of doing so. One of my online friends wanted to portray the fact they could have a same sex marriage without being derided because, the game being of the fantasy genre with lines of nobility an whatnot, is going to be looked down on that because it wasn’t going to result in children. While some players I know, might take that in stride as apart of IC growth and social conflict, this wasn’t the case. And that really bothered my friend, who felt like their character was being treated as a second class citizen in game because of their orientation. It was something that stuck with me months and years later when I finally decided to make a game of my own and decided that “I’m never going to make a character or a player feel like that.”

So in my head, it’s far easier to just make an entire world/theme/history/lore/etc that has nothing based in historical or modern reality. And I can create that kind of social constraints by applying them in completely different ways and still feel like it’s an IC conflict, without having it be based on something like gender, orientations, religion, etc etc.

But it just being of a personal preference? Hey, I can respect that. I think it goes without all saying that we all have types of genres and themes that we’re going to view more favorably than others simply because it’s what we like. I don’t hate on historical fiction or modern day(I tried Changeling, really I did, and it just never grabbed me, and I hate myself for that), I just know after countless attempts that it’s just never stuck me.

[L. B. Heuschkel]

@Testament That take is entirely valid (and really only goes to show why games can’t be for everyone). I’m the opposite – I don’t want to learn a whole fictional world when there’s a real, historical one right here with endless cues and prompts for action.

Either take’s valid, I figure.

[KarmaBum]

@farfalla said in New Concept:

I can’t grasp the idea that there’s massive oppression and we’re just all ignoring it.

You and I had a scene on a game set in the “real world” on 2/6/2019 - the day of Trump’s State of the Union Address, the day Pope Francis acknowledged sexual predation by priests against nuns, and a few other things, and we totally ignored it in our RP and focused on magical wolves coming out of portals and mauling stupid stoners.

Honest question: does the fact that it’s historical and not modern have an impact?

We do this all the time in modern settings. I believe Keys and Network both have a “no COVID” take on things, no? So is it harder to put out of mind because it’s historical?

[Pavel]

I think that we, here and generally, need to get better at just accepting “I like things X way” as a complete answer for things like this.

[L. B. Heuschkel]

@KarmaBum said in New Concept:

We do this all the time in modern settings. I believe Keys and Network both have a “no COVID” take on things, no? So is it harder to put out of mind because it’s historical?

Not a complete No Covid take but close. We request that players downplay things that might lead to pointless OOC arguments, such as contemporary politics (think Trump) and Covid-19. They do exist but no one wants to hear about it in their pretendy fun time.

[KarmaBum]

@Pavel I don’t think anyone’s not accepting it. Just being curious about other people.

I’ve known @farfalla since we were both basically children, and she and I have discussed some in the past where our prefs are different - and they are wildly different. But she’s awesome and if there is middle-ground, it’s worth finding.

[Pavel]

@KarmaBum said in New Concept:

Honest question: does the fact that it’s historical and not modern have an impact?

Yes.

The timeline diverges the minute the game starts, with perhaps a few bits of salt added to the past for flavour (like vampire control of governments or a town having been there the whole time, etc) without changing the overall situation that lead to today.

Why? Because I’m not living in the Wild West and want to experience it. I’m living through COVID and do not want to experience it.

[KarmaBum]

@Pavel said in New Concept:

The timeline diverges the minute the game starts

No. The timeline in this instance was unaltered. There was stuff for this particular small town, but there was no larger rewriting of global political history. (I was making “build the wall” jokes because that’s what was topical at the time and I always grab low-hanging fruit.) Hence why I wanted to pick farf’s brain on this one.

It could be that she hated it the whole time and bounced because it killed it for her. It could also be that she had a different take four years ago than she does today. But I’m curious.

[Pavel]

@KarmaBum said in New Concept:

@Pavel said in New Concept:

The timeline diverges the minute the game starts

No. The timeline in this instance was unaltered. There was stuff for this particular small town, but there was no larger rewriting of global political history.

That’s not what I meant. When a game starts, what happens after is a diverged timeline from reality.

Besides, I was answering your question generally, not specifically.

[KarmaBum]

@Pavel I know. I was speaking specifically.

[Pavel]

@KarmaBum Please don’t use smileys when you’re talking to me, I rather dislike them.

[bear_necessities]

@farfalla I’m admittedly not explaining myself the well but I agree with what @KarmaBum said below and pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter. Although just to add some clarity, I’m not saying these things shouldn’t affect your character or that it shouldn’t be an important part of their background, but it also doesn’t have to be the focal point of the story? Like I don’t need to be fighting monsters while also actively treating another PC like shit because of <insert -ism here>.

Hopefully that makes sense. Words are hard.

[farfalla]

@KarmaBum said in New Concept:

Honest question: does the fact that it’s historical and not modern have an impact?

Why would you call me out like this omg. I honestly don’t know! I think the answer is yes, but I don’t know why. Scale maybe? I typed up some answers but I think they get too political for poor @BloodAngel’s post about the cthulu game lol. But it’s definitely easier for me to ignore covid than, like, slavery.

@bear_necessities said in New Concept:

Although just to add some clarity, I’m not saying these things shouldn’t affect your character or that it shouldn’t be an important part of their background, but it also doesn’t have to be the focal point of the story?

I wasn’t arguing with you, sorry if it came across that way! Your post just made me think about it. I very much understand this position, in the same way that I understand people who can’t BAT. I was just interested in my own reaction, which is that I don’t want to have it inform my character I just want to kiss ladies, but ignoring it feels weird.

My thoughts are probably also informed by the fact that I’ve never played a historical game, in part because I couldn’t get past this hurdle and in part because there just aren’t that many. And I’ve only played two contemporary games - I’m mostly in fantasy land, tbh, where I appreciate not having to deal with the modern day oppressions.

I do definitely think it’s just a random person to person preference with no right answer, in the same way that grid vs no grid or logging vs not logging or an infinite number of other preferences are.

[Pavel]

@farfalla said in New Concept:

logging vs not logging

I draw a line in the sand here. People who don’t log are weird and wrong and should be ashamed of themselves. It’s unnatural.

[bear_necessities]

@farfalla I didn’t think you are arguing at all, no need to apologize! I am just not great with words anymore these days so I wanted to make my point a little clearer lol

[KarmaBum]

@farfalla said in New Concept:

Why would you call me out like this omg.

Because we don’t RP anywhere and haven’t in years SO THIS IS THE ONLY PLACE I ENGAGE WITH YOU OK?!

Also because I genuinely care about your opinion! You’re a good RPer who just has a totally different set of preferences from mine. And I know (or at least hope!) that you can talk across the divide without taking it personally.

@farfalla said in New Concept:

I’m mostly in fantasy land, tbh, where I appreciate not having to deal with the modern day oppressions.

And this is kinda what I thought. I remember you didn’t even play that long, so I was wondering if that was part of what factored into it - that the real world just ain’t yo thang.

[farfalla]

@KarmaBum I definitely didn’t take it personally, don’t worry!

I’d like to play on a modern game there just hasn’t been one that worked for me for various other reasons.

[Faraday]

@KarmaBum said in New Concept:

We do this all the time in modern settings. I believe Keys and Network both have a “no COVID” take on things, no? So is it harder to put out of mind because it’s historical?

No, if your game is set in 2023, I would have the same same uncanny valley problem. What exactly does a 2020 without covid look like? What happened instead? What didn’t happen?

@Testament said in New Concept:

“I’m never going to make a character or a player feel like that.”

I respect that compassion immensely. I too want people to feel safe, and do worry about toxic people inflicting distress under the banner of “but history!” I’m not sure I would ever run another open historical game for that reason. I think about doing a sci fi western sometimes to have a similar “lawless frontier” feel without the baggage, but it’s a lot of work to define something original.

[Pavel]

@Faraday said in New Concept:

I think about doing a sci fi western sometimes to have a similar “lawless frontier” feel without the baggage, but it’s a lot of work to define something original.

Firefly could work as a setting, if you were of a mind.

[Gashlycrumb]

Huh.

I don’t see why anything should stop you from removing the bigotry, with no explanation and no lampshade. As ‘Bridgerton’ has done. It is a historical fantasy and we don’t really have to worry about, or even ask, why some English aristocrats are Black in 1813. We can enjoy a show about romance and social manipulations and pretend the period had no racism and that the classism wasn’t really relevant. We can even watch ‘Harlots’ the next night and enjoy characters battling very highly relevant racism, classism and sexism without it ruining ‘Bridgerton’ or getting confused and thinking it’s the same fictional reality.

Nobody wants really accurate historicals, it’s too much reading and you get somebody like me saying, “No, you don’t have a Golden Retriever, they didn’t exist until 1908, no, there is no chocolate in medieval Italy and you don’t have an oven either, no, your pirate ship is not called ‘Aces Wild’ because we predate poker by over 200 years,” and so on.

Speaking of ships: CoC on an ocean-liner, with nods to shit like those Bermuda Triangle X-Files episodes and such.

Edited to Add: Not that I lack sympathy for those who do hate these inaccuracies and find they interfere with suspension of disbelief. I had to put (Sexy) Rome on pause to swear for several minutes about how there are so many parrots in that show and every single one of them is S. American or Australian, when the Old World has plenty of parrots that Romans really would have.