Heckler's veto

[Testament]

@Roz On that I agree with you, and how annoying would it be see a bunch of “I agree” posts(I know one of is going post just that at some point). I think the other potential avenue is not getting rid of the function, just hiding how many there are and by who.

And while I really really hate to make a comparison to YouTube and that example doesn’t wholly work here in a sense of sheer scope, but. That was something they did, hence what gave me the initial thought of it.

@Jumpscare Nevermind, it already happened.

[Roz]

@Testament said in Heckler's veto:

@Roz On that I agree with you, and how annoying would it be see a bunch of “I agree” posts(I know one of is going post just that at some point). I think the other potential avenue is not getting rid of the function, just hiding how many there are and by who.

And while I really really hate to make a comparison to YouTube and that example doesn’t wholly work here in a sense of sheer scope, but. That was something they did, hence what gave me the initial thought of it.

YouTube still shows me the number of upvotes a video has gotten – do you mean something else? Just the identities?

I kind of feel like if there’s no feedback for the upvotes, it’d still result in the same behavior as the upvote feature not existing.

[Polk]

@Roz Youtube hid downvotes. They left upvotes.

[Testament]

@Roz Maybe something like that, just the identities. What I don’t want is something to turn into is some kind popularity contest, and there are times where it does seem like that. And in the past, that has seemed like that’s what it is, despite whether or not that actually true, there is a sensation that that’s what it feels like. I suppose not taking the function away, maybe simply leave it more nebulous

ETA: Again, I just wanted to open the discussion as to what people feel about it on the whole. If it stays, no biggie. Just something I wanted to discuss.

[Mourne]

@Roz I think (maybe, thinking might be too strong of a word) that what @Testament means is that we have no downvotes. So the lack of upvotes amounts to the same thing as being downvoted. It’s the silence of either A) Being ignored or B) Nobody agrees with you.

In that respect upvotes are still a measure in which negative connotations can be made. So if we’re trying to avoid negativity, then we need to ignore positivity as well as the lack of positive reinforcement is by it’s nature a negative situation when there is no clearly defined negative response.

Also, in that respect, by seeing names associated with upvotes, we’re again having the potential of seeing ‘blocks’ of individuals, because humans are keyed to see patterns in /everything/. It’s just how our brains work.

[sao]

@Testament I feel some confusion here. Do you mean that knowing who is upvoting creates a popularity contest?

[Testament]

@sao Kind of? @Mourne explained it better than I could’ve. Because I shouldn’t write these kind of thoughts while in a Teams meetings. Also, because I’m probably an idiot.

[Herja]

So would it be better or worse to see 20 posts that agree with the person that is not you and also just say exactly what they said? Because I think that is exactly what is going to happen. Upvotes prevent some of that. You can’t really restrict people interacting with people they agree with even if you take away upvotes. If this board gets rid of upvotes, that’s fine but I’m not really cool with policing to the point where I can’t even just throw up a post in support of a good point because someone is reading way too much into these interactions and taking them to heart when nothing personal is meant.

[KarmaBum]

@Testament If you have StyleBot, you can hide them on your end:

span.votes {
    display: none;
}

[Third Eye]

@Roz said in Heckler's veto:

I think the biggest issue that would come with getting rid of upvotes is that it’d inevitably end up with an increase in really basic “I agree” posts. So I’d almost fear that it’d make the overall feeling more prevalent, not less.

My genuine defense of downvotes has always been that I think they prevented a bunch of repetitive ‘UR WRONG’ posts, and I agree upvotes serve the same function. That said, I do think the forum is probably better off without downvotes and I wouldn’t mourn if upvotes were eliminated or, maybe preferably, anonymized.

[farfalla]

Is there a skin or… layout? Idk what do we call the way we make this place look?

Anyway, is there one that hides those things? Then people could opt out of seeing it.

I once let a single upvote make me think someone didn’t like me for like, a year, so I can see why someone might want to. I was eventually able to give myself a stern talking to and actively made an effort to see upvotes as just “I agree” or “thanks” or “valuable addition,” and no upvotes as just nothing at all, no meaning whatsoever. And now I’m like 75% sure that person likes me.

[Roz]

@Mourne said in Heckler's veto:

@Roz I think (maybe, thinking might be too strong of a word) that what @Testament means is that we have no downvotes. So the lack of upvotes amounts to the same thing as being downvoted. It’s the silence of either A) Being ignored or B) Nobody agrees with you.

In that respect upvotes are still a measure in which negative connotations can be made. So if we’re trying to avoid negativity, then we need to ignore positivity as well as the lack of positive reinforcement is by it’s nature a negative situation when there is no clearly defined negative response.

Also, in that respect, by seeing names associated with upvotes, we’re again having the potential of seeing ‘blocks’ of individuals, because humans are keyed to see patterns in /everything/. It’s just how our brains work.

I intend this gently, and doing my best to be cognizant of how sometimes bad feels can just – really be bad feels. But this feels a little extreme to me, the idea that we have to kind of maintain a perfect neutrality here. If someone’s brain is kind of fixated on this in a bad way, then even doing something like removing the ability to see WHO upvoted a thing isn’t gonna help – if your brain is being a jerk, it’s just gonna fixate on who those anonymous upvotes might be (especially if they’re upvotes with posts disagreeing with you). So I don’t know that anonymizing would help the situation, either.

[Testament]

@Herja said in Heckler's veto:

because someone is reading way too much into these interactions and taking them to heart when nothing personal is meant.

Since I was the one that started this discussion, I’ll agree, there are times I completely take upvotes(or lack of upvotes)as an unsaid translation of what I’m saying is wrong, or that I’m simply not liked and merely a tolerated presence. And despite my countenance, I dislike how wishing for acceptance from those I share this hobby means so much to me. And at times, it does.

Again, whether or not upvotes stay or not, is fine. I suppose I just wanted to know if anyone else felt similar. A wonder if I was alone in that sensation.

[Duke Whisky]

I’m scared to upvote anything

[sao]

@Whisky FREE YOUR THUMBS

[sao]

@Testament fwiw I still miss sending you dumb crow mail

[Duke Whisky]

@sao I am using a mouse so it is my index finger

[sao]

@Whisky somehow if I say free your finger it sounds dirtier

[Jumpscare]

On a more serious note, I find upvotes valuable as a social tool. When a post seems legit to me, I give it an upvote. When a post feels off in some way, I check to see the upvotes to see if I read it wrong, or if I’m just completely off base with what I’m thinking and consider the replies.

I’ve been swayed by upvotes to learn new things, new events, and more. Even when people upvote dead celebrity notifications, I find that useful.

Some posts don’t need upvotes. Not upvoting doesn’t necessarily mean disagreement or being ignored. Sometimes a post is just neutrally informational. Sometimes @pisscat shows up and showers you with upvotes.

For another aspect of upvotes, take a look at the Liberation MUSH thread(s). It doesn’t have as many upvotes because it feels like few people are aware of the situation and (at least in my experience) I’m not familiar with a number of the posters, or I’m not knowledgeable in the field of gnosis and freebies. I’m sure there are some good posts there, but I don’t have the experience necessary to give an upvote.

Unrelatedly, I also feel that without upvotes, it’s easier for predators to sneak in, but I don’t have anything to back this up.

Overall, I feel like upvotes are a good system for bestowing and verifying trust. When I first showed up, almost all of my posts got between 0 and 2 upvotes because I was an unknown entity who was making contributions, but nobody really knew who I was back then. If you’ve ever played VRChat, they have a system of trust where there more you hang out with people, the more you level up your friendship. I believe Celestra has something like this, too. It’s less possible to do that on a forum, but I think upvotes are a good substitute.

I don’t have a strong preference on whether or not to anonymize upvotes, though.

[Mourne]

@Roz I was just trying to explain the idea behind a thing.

I personally don’t care about upvotes, or downvotes, or anything like that because, if I am being brutally honest, faceless individuals on a forum don’t have a whole lot of power over me

I am from a time when things were more or less… harsher.

There were no performance trophies, negative things happened and we had to learn to accept them and deal with them in order to survive, and it was a whole different world.

So the idea of a perfect neutrality is just as useless to me as not having downvotes, or upvotes.

On this forum the only form of ‘acceptance’ at a glance is the ‘upvote’ so when someone doesn’t receive them then they and their views are not being ‘accepted’. Without a means to determine when something /is/ received negatively (at a glance) the ambiguity of ‘I am not getting upvotes’ vs ‘The only way people can show they don’t agree with something I posted is to not upvote’…

Ok getting rambly. Let me try to simplify for my own thought process.

Upvote is carrot.
There is no stick.
Lack of carrot becomes stick.