What has changed?

[Third Eye]

@Pavel said in What has changed?:

I’d definitely argue that, once again, we’re only a tiny corner of the hobby. What we see reflects what people here are interested in, not what exists. More people here are interested in Arx and superheroes than World of Darkness, so we see more of the former and less of the latter.

Arx is to me an example of something that’s maybe not really new as just ‘new to regular discussion’ because - in addition to the players from RPIs and stuff it pulls in (and people who play because it’s a big game and those always have a gravitational pull) - I noticed anecdotally when I was active there that a lot of folks on it had played Firan and just kinda dropped out of the hobby after Firan, then came back when Arx became a thing. Which feels like in part another example of players who just don’t play much outside a particular genre (which makes sense, really, a lot of folks do).

[Arkandel]

Some folks mentioned MUDs being quite popular.

Now I haven’t played on a MUD since the nineties so I must ask… what’s the lure these days? Why do people play on one, as opposed to a MUSH?

The reason I ask is MUSHes offer words to deliver their gameplay, and that’s a very unique feature. The combination of improv, literature and minds-eye theater is pretty niche.

But… why a MUD? What’s the upside of typing ‘cast fireball kobold’ as opposed to clicking on an icon in one of the myriad graphical MMORPGs?

[Testament]

@Arkandel Some people like low-res MMOs. Like no, really. I had a couple of friends who only played MUDs for that reason. They don’t really want to write a narrative, have no interest in RP, but still enjoy the gameplay that MUDs tend to contain.

Some were older players, who had been playing MUDs since they first came around. It kind of reminds me of my dad who still plays his Commodore 64, specifically playing Fantasy Adventure, where all inputs in the game are done by inputting a ‘verb+noun’ combination. Like ‘take key’ or ‘climb ladder’, etc etc.

It takes all kinds, I suppose.

[TNP]

“It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.”

[Testament]

I suddenly have the overwhelming urge to play Shadowgate. The NES version, to note.

[Kay]

…
You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door.
There is a small mailbox here.

@TNP Infocom games were my MU* gateway drug. I remember my jaw dropping at the idea that I could play these text-based RPGs with other people. It was a whole new world!

[Pyrephox]

@Arkandel said in What has changed?:

Some folks mentioned MUDs being quite popular.

Now I haven’t played on a MUD since the nineties so I must ask… what’s the lure these days? Why do people play on one, as opposed to a MUSH?

The reason I ask is MUSHes offer words to deliver their gameplay, and that’s a very unique feature. The combination of improv, literature and minds-eye theater is pretty niche.

But… why a MUD? What’s the upside of typing ‘cast fireball kobold’ as opposed to clicking on an icon in one of the myriad graphical MMORPGs?

MUDs have gone way, way beyond that. I occasionally dip my toe in that water, and the coding work that’s done in modern MUDs can be very sophisticated, and offers more customization than graphical MU*s. You can have full automated crafting systems, automated questing systems, coded effects for magic/weapon systems that vary due to time/place/etc. all coded natively, and then you can ALSO create new objects/descriptions/rooms/organizations almost on the fly, which MMOs don’t allow you to do.

MUDs really tend to think out the logistics of economies and multiplayer systems more than MU*s do, and code for that. Which isn’t to say they’re amazing; there’s a lot of duds, and it’s a very different culture that isn’t always a good match. But one good thing about MUDs is that you usually can log in at just about any time and Do Something that has an effect on the world, or on your personal character, whether any PCs or staff members are logged on at all.

I can see where that helps keep a steadier population over time than MU*s, where a lot more burden of activity relies on active staff and players willing to create content to engage with.

[Arkandel]

@Pyrephox said in What has changed?:

But one good thing about MUDs is that you usually can log in at just about any time and Do Something that has an effect on the world, or on your personal character, whether any PCs or staff members are logged on at all.

Yes, if I could warrant a guess as to what a transformative property for MUSH should be at the moment on a technical/design level, that would be it. Giving people stuff to do when there is no RP to be found at the time.

[Pyrephox]

@Arkandel said in What has changed?:

@Pyrephox said in What has changed?:

But one good thing about MUDs is that you usually can log in at just about any time and Do Something that has an effect on the world, or on your personal character, whether any PCs or staff members are logged on at all.

Yes, if I could warrant a guess as to what a transformative property for MUSH should be at the moment on a technical/design level, that would be it. Giving people stuff to do when there is no RP to be found at the time.

I honestly think that’s been a significant part of the success of Arx and somewhere like Firan. I know when I was playing Arx, if I was having trouble finding RP, I could still log in, play the haggle game, or make tchotchkes, and still feel like I was moving my character forward, even if only a little bit. RP was BEST, but if the energy or opportunity wasn’t there, I could still play.

[Faraday]

@Arkandel said in What has changed?:

Yes, if I could warrant a guess as to what a transformative property for MUSH should be at the moment on a technical/design level, that would be it. Giving people stuff to do when there is no RP to be found at the time.

See, whereas I see would see that level of transformation as a bad thing. MUSHes veered off from MUDs originally to get away from that degree of automation, coded interaction, etc. to become more social endeavors.

That’s not to say that hybrids like Firan and Arx, or RP-heavy RPI MUDs are bad or lesser in any way. Everyone likes different things, and I’m happy they exist for folks who want that kind of interaction.

But I do think that categorization is an important thing for communicating what a thing is, and I don’t want to see MUSHes become something where coded crafting, bot missions, etc. are the norm/expected.

[Arkandel]

@Faraday What I had in mind (and it’s not just an example - back in the day I wanted to code it, but of course never did) was a MUSH/MUD hybrid where combat was graphically portrayed in a grid.

So for example instead of RP you could take your party to a randomly generated dungeon and fight mobs based on the challenge level you chose, and yield rewards you could then spend on RP-related stuff. Gold to fund upgrades for your faction, rare ingredients to craft better gear, etc.

Obviously that approach doesn’t fit every game or even gaming ‘style’. I thought it’d be interesting though.

[Kay]

@Pyrephox said in What has changed?:

@Arkandel said in What has changed?:

@Pyrephox said in What has changed?:

But one good thing about MUDs is that you usually can log in at just about any time and Do Something that has an effect on the world, or on your personal character, whether any PCs or staff members are logged on at all.

Yes, if I could warrant a guess as to what a transformative property for MUSH should be at the moment on a technical/design level, that would be it. Giving people stuff to do when there is no RP to be found at the time.

I honestly think that’s been a significant part of the success of Arx and somewhere like Firan. I know when I was playing Arx, if I was having trouble finding RP, I could still log in, play the haggle game, or make tchotchkes, and still feel like I was moving my character forward, even if only a little bit. RP was BEST, but if the energy or opportunity wasn’t there, I could still play.

Agreed. Those mini games on Firan was what kept me returning to it for far longer than I normally would have. Especially crafting.

[IoleRae]

@Arkandel

I know of an instance of that that’s in development right now (outside of muds, where that’s included out of the box).