Concordia Thread

[BloodAngel]

@Tchotchke Okay, as I said it was vague. I would like to know what about my behavior was creepy. I referred to the post above. So I can do better in the future, social cues and me don’t always work. I have many mental issues, to be honest.

[Coin]

@Tchotchke said in Concordia Thread:

I did not really expect to post on this forum again, but I’m feeling well-disposed towards a game actually addressing creepy behavior. They outlined reasons at https://concordiamu.aresmush.com/forum/1/310

Yeah, sorry. Again, I’m not saying it’s an obligation to disclose the actual behavior (especially not in public), but that post does nothing to explain or elaborate. It just says ‘complaints and bannable behavior’.

What were the complaints about? What was the behavior? I’m not even saying it should be on the forum, but @BloodAngel is saying he wasn’t told, and that is the issue I’m addressing.

[Testament]

@BloodAngel Eeeeeeh, are you asking for people that might’ve complained about your behavior wanting to come forward? They don’t have to if that’s the situation.

Not for nothing, that implication might not be all that great either. Which I’m not saying is what you’re doing, but that might be how it reads to some, yeah?

[BloodAngel]

@Coin I had not a word from the staff. I would have tried to adjust myself. I got a don’t run a scene and run an event page, my next two events I did not RP and run.

[Tez]

@BloodAngel I can understand why you might want to know more details, but it can sometimes be hard to give details without it then becoming identifying information.

[BloodAngel]

@Tez I don’t want names, I just want to know how I can do better that is all.

[BloodAngel]

@Testament No, I want to know what the banned things are so I can be better in future talking to others.

[Testament]

@BloodAngel That’s fair enough.

At the same time, and as much you might not wholly agree with it, staff of any game aren’t obligated to give a reason. Since it’s their game, ethical questions aside.

It kind of reminds me when I was trying to apply for a different position in my company. I asked for feedback for how I could improve for future attempts. I was told there was no feedback to give. In either situation it doesn’t sit well.

[Rucket]

I have to agree with @Coin

Just because companies in the US can just fire people willy nilly because our labor laws are ass, doesn’t mean people shouldn’t have the basic reasons of their banning provided to them. I guess unless it’s someone who’s such a problem you’ve got to get them off right then and there, but tbh @BloodAngel doesn’t strike me that way.

[Coin]

@Testament said in Concordia Thread:

@BloodAngel That’s fair enough.

At the same time, and as much you might not wholly agree with it, staff of any game aren’t obligated to give a reason. Since it’s their game, ethical questions aside.

It kind of reminds me when I was trying to apply for a different position in my company. I asked for feedback for how I could improve for future attempts. I was told there was no feedback to give. In either situation it doesn’t sit well.

Just because someone doesn’t have an obligation to do something doesn’t mean it’s not crticizable or that it doesn’t merit calling out.

I’m not concerned with obligation, I’m concerned with pointing out behavior that I think is detrimental. If you just ban people without any sort of explanation, you’re putting them back out there with no CHANCE of bettering their behavior. Sure, there are those who won’t change because they like being assholes, but there are plenty of others for whom cultural and even neurological differences make social integration and relations a tricky proposition and who, if their behavior is pointed out, will do their best to self-correct.

It seems to me no one even bothered to be like, “hey, @BloodAngel, can you stop doing [x, y], please? Thanks”. It was just ban, and no, you can’t know why!

That just seems myopic.

[Roz]

@Testament said in Concordia Thread:

At the same time, and as much you might not wholly agree with it, staff of any game aren’t obligated to give a reason. Since it’s their game, ethical questions aside.

I mean, yes, games can do whatever they want, because they belong to whoever is running them. No one is legally obligated to even foster a generally good environment on a game. You can just as easily say that game-runners aren’t obligated to protect their players from creepy comments. Lack of obligation is kind of irrelevant in these sorts of conversation; they’re generally about what people to be find ethically appropriate.

[Faraday]

@Tez said in Concordia Thread:

@BloodAngel I can understand why you might want to know more details, but it can sometimes be hard to give details without it then becoming identifying information.

Exactly. If I’m staff and I say: “I received complaints that you were being inappropriately aggressive in pursuing female players for romantic RP” or “You wouldn’t stop stalking this one player’s RP scenes” - that’s going to single out who complained and we know from past experience that often doesn’t end well.

Note: These are not in any way accusations against BloodAngel. I don’t know them; I don’t play on the game; I have no information on this scenario; I am merely speaking in hypotheticals about the principle.

I still think the player should be notified personally, but they’re not entitled to specifics.

Side note - often workplaces can’t comment on dismissals for privacy reasons. I think those same principles apply on games, and ultimately staff doesn’t really need a reason.

[Coin]

@Faraday said in Concordia Thread:

@Tez said in Concordia Thread:

@BloodAngel I can understand why you might want to know more details, but it can sometimes be hard to give details without it then becoming identifying information.

Exactly. If I’m staff and I say: “I received complaints that you were being inappropriately aggressive in pursuing female players for romantic RP” or “You wouldn’t stop stalking this one player’s RP scenes” - that’s going to single out who complained and we know from past experience that often doesn’t end well.

Note: These are not in any way accusations against BloodAngel. I don’t know them; I don’t play on the game; I have no information on this scenario; I am merely speaking in hypotheticals about the principle.

I still think the player should be notified personally, but they’re not entitled to specifics.

Side note - often workplaces can’t comment on dismissals for privacy reasons. I think those same principles apply on games, and ultimately staff doesn’t really need a reason.

By and large, predators who are actively stalking and pursuing people who get banned don’t need to be told who did it; they already know, because that person stopped replying to DMs on discord, or broke contact, or whatever.

The way we respond to these issues must be contextual, or the “protective” actions become increasingly detrimental to the community as a whole.

If people hadn’t taken me aside years ago and been like, “hey, that thing you said isn’t all right”, or “doing this thing is kinda creepy, you need to not because x, y”, I would possibly have had a lot harder of a time realizing some of my own behaviors weren’t healthy and weren’t friendly and weren’t acceptable.

We should’t, IMO, hold ourselves up to be the judges of what is acceptable or not in a space --which we do, on our games and in this forum, regularly-- and then be unwilling to present the bare minimum of effort in trying to inform misguided people as to how to better themselves.

I’m not talking about the raging incels or serial predators, but people who aren’t repeat offenders (which is why it needs to be contextual).

[Rinel]

Without this being approval or criticism of the ban, I’m sad to see Percival go. I had some fun scenes with him, and having someone who likes to run events is always nice.

That said, sometimes things don’t click, or there are problems, or you make a mistake serious enough to warrant a ban. I hope that you can get as much feedback as is appropriate, @BloodAngel .

[BloodAngel]

@Rinel Thank you. All I wanted to do was give rp and run plots, to help everyone feel connected to the game. If I offended or did something wrong, I can’t do better without knowing the type of thing I did. It’s hard to reflect on yourself without a mirror, which is what I’m lacking right now.

[Testament]

@Roz Yeah, and I agree. Any player that is removed should be given some kind explanation, without those details risking anyone that might’ve made the initial complaint in doing so. That’s what I’d personally like to see happen.

And most games I see tend to at least try and uphold this. But, I’m also aware that going to a game’s staff and demanding justifications usually isn’t going to go anywhere, hence my initial point.

They should give a reason, but they don’t have to, as much as others may disagree with it.

[Coin]

@Testament said in Concordia Thread:

But, I’m also aware that going to a game’s staff and demanding justifications usually isn’t going to go anywhere,

I got no race for this horse, I am perfectly willing to go at a moderate trot.

[Rucket]

@Rinel said in Concordia Thread:

Without this being approval or criticism of the ban, I’m sad to see Percival go. I had some fun scenes with him, and having someone who likes to run events is always nice.

That said, sometimes things don’t click, or there are problems, or you make a mistake serious enough to warrant a ban. I hope that you can get as much feedback as is appropriate, @BloodAngel .

Yeah I am not in the org Percival started but I do hope that it lives and the next person to pick up that character can do it justice.

[BloodAngel]

@Rucket Me as well! I hope it goes well for the game to be honest.

[Tchotchke]

Interestingly, this was not criticised at all when Arx, an obvious point of comparison to this game, removed people for poor behavior. For example https://play.arxmush.org/comms/boards/19511/view/1455790