hobos Temporary Ban Discussion Thread

[Tez]

@glitch Fair point and thank you for saying so. You’re right: we’re still figuring this all out. We’ll need to think about that.

[IoleRae]

I do not even in the SLIGHTEST think that it’s a bad idea to have more active moderation, and I think if the team is UP for it, it can only do good things. I do agree that it needs to be made clear (and you guys need to feel comfortable with what it is you’re agreeing to do), but I do NOT think active moderation would be bad even a little bit.

[Pavel]

@glitch Speaking only for myself, the current state of hurt and anguish over the recent history of MSB is a precarious situation requiring a more active hand than we expected when setting out those initial guidelines. I certainly agree that it’s more active than we had intimated, but at the same time I feel that it’s warranted in cases of heightened negative feeling and regard.

I may well be alone in this view, and that’s fine too, but that’s why I supported the decision.

[helvetica]

Active moderation is a big ask with a lot of emotional labor involved and it could lead to… burnout. I think we all just lived through an epic mod burnout and I hope we can account for insulating the people keeping this structure in place, too. I def think clarity in the Guidelines like @glitch said can help with that.

[Pavel]

@helvetica It definitely could lead to burnout. Thankfully we’re not just one entity making all the decisions, and we’re each responsible to each other as well as responsible for the forum. We earnestly mean it when we say we’re a team.

This is a time of flux, and starting out with the more-traditional “hands-off” approach is a sound move. Saying that, however, it probably needs to be further developed as situations and needs arise that demonstrate change is needed.

A totally static policy is a useless policy when adaptation is required.

[tsar]

I know that I’m feeling worried about us hashing and re-hashing our feelings in the banned thread. It’s been a lot. I just realized last night that this has all been going on since before 5/5. That’s nearly a month.

A month of hurt feelings, feeling defensive, feeling injustice, feeling angry on your own behalf or someone else’s.

I’d be happy at this point to see some of these posts put to rest. But I accept other people aren’t there yet. I just don’t want us to fan the flames more than we have to.

[glitch]

@Pavel I didn’t get banned from MSB, but I did have a certain investment in it as well and had my own thoughts about what happened. I don’t mind more moderation if that’s going to be the thing, or honestly even more touch-and-go moderation in instances where there’s consensus among admin as to a particular subject that storms the forums at any given time.

Guidelines are guidelines for a reason. They don’t need to become stale or adhered to religiously for all time. They don’t even need to be super long and intricate. I just think they need to be clear.

@tsar I haven’t really been participating in the threads, so I don’t say this out of a desire to keep it going. I just would like to see this forum do well and so I bring up things that matter to me in that regard.

[Roz]

I’m of mixed opinion of the rule in general, and I hope that it can come with some level of flexibility. For instance, say a creeper or otherwise abusive player reemerges on a game. Part of the value of a long-running forum is having those histories accessible and referenceable, and I think that if someone encounters a player like that and posts about it here, that it should be okay to bring in historical records to help give people context.

I do agree that it’d definitely be the best for everyone’s sanity to overall just – not link or screenshot stuff for the purpose of trolling or rubbernecking or what have you. It won’t help, it won’t actually make anyone feel better except maybe in a fleeting moment of petty satisfaction or something. But overall, it’ll just extend bad feelings.

For the Hobos situation in particular, there was no need to link anything to the player, who – as I said – was part of the conversations. And I don’t think there was any particular need to preemptively link something in a defensive sort of way for anyone else who might be reading. If someone came and asked “Hey does anyone have a fuller story on this whole situation?” I feel like it’d be fair to link someone to a conversation for context.

THAT’S MY TWO CENTS.

[farfalla]

Could this be a decision that’s revisited and reconsidered in the future, when everyone has more distance from current events? I’m not sure I’m in favor of making years of history off-limits on every topic, forever. I’m also more comfortable with a temporary rules/policy/vibe alteration than deciding something now that permanently affects those things.

[Tez]

@Pavel said in Admin Actions Discussion Thread:

A totally static policy is a useless policy when adaptation is required.

I’m gonna pull out one line of Pavel’s post to emphasize. I realize that many people in this community don’t really know me, but this right here is something that is pretty foundational to how I approach things.

I don’t want the atmosphere to appear unstable, where things are constantly changing, and you never know what to expect, and rules are getting changed beneath you without warning and ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU ARE BEING PUNISHED AND AHHHHH. That said, I very much believe in iterating on things, and on trying to do better. So there may be things that change – and there should be things that don’t. (Or don’t change easily.) So we’ll think about how to communicate that.

[tsar]

@glitch said in Admin Actions Discussion Thread:

haven’t really been participating in the threads, so I don’t say this out of a desire to keep it going. I just would like to see this forum do well and so I bring up things that matter to me in that regard

I understand where you’re coming from 100% and I apologize if that read like I was attempting to say you were doing anything other than be constructive.

[farfalla]

Also, any moderation and policy decisions should be based on what’s good for BMD, not what MSB is going to think about it.

[Tez]

@farfalla said in Admin Actions Discussion Thread:

Could this be a decision that’s revisited and reconsidered in the future, when everyone has more distance from current events? I’m not sure I’m in favor of making years of history off-limits on every topic, forever. I’m also more comfortable with a temporary rules/policy/vibe alteration than deciding something now that permanently affects those things.

Oh, this is absolutely not meant to be an across the board ban to ever linking to MSB. As I mentioned, when there are repeating patterns and documentation on MSB that comes up in the future, I think that is an EXTREMELY valuable resource that is worth referencing. This is pretty specific to this time and place.

[glitch]

@tsar It didn’t. If I didn’t think mods cared, I wouldn’t put in the effort.

[Pavel]

Strictly speaking, the decision simply says “in this thread.” It’s not a total blanket ban on screenshots or links in other conversations. Right now we’re not at all saying that you can’t ever anywhere post links or relevant information period.

[Tez]

If you guys think that is being broadly interpreted as a blanket ban on referencing MSB, we might wanna clarify in its own post rather than losing it in this thread.

[farfalla]

@Tez I just went back and re-read it, and it does say “in this thread” or on related topics, but I for sure read it as a blanket ban. I might just have poor reading comprehension though.

[Tez]

@farfalla I think it’s more likely that people are primed to be a bit raw about that stuff right now than that you have poor reading comprehension.

[Pavel]

The main thing I want to avoid, and this is again speaking only for myself, is creating a “this is the bash MSB and everyone that still posts there” thread. I don’t care what MSB has to say about it, and I earnestly don’t want to stifle healthy debate and discussion, but right now it’s just poking at the open wound and not letting it scab over.

Again, just my view and my reasons for supporting the decision.

ETA: I’m sorry that this sounds incredibly paternalistic to the point of being condescending. You’re all adults and you can make your own decisions about what you think, how you express your feelings, and what you engage with.

[farfalla]

It could be worth adding a line to the policies that includes something about adding temporary restrictions or increased moderation - that are open to user feedback - around particularly heated subjects. Or something like that, which says ‘hey yeah sometimes we might as for things to pause’ so that it’s in there as a policy that can be 1) known and 2) pointed to.