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How dangerous is VASpider?
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@Aria It really depends on how one defines dangerous.
In terms of our little inconsequential hobby and our enjoyment thereof? Dangerous.
So it’s entirely possible they could also be similarly dangerous in other online areas of niche interest, if they apply the same mentality to it.RL? Probably not a problem at all.
He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
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@Pavel Yeah, like I said, other people’s mileage will likely vary. I would not want them on a game that I played on, just having seen what the result of that is and – to your point – think it would ruin a lot of the enjoyment for a lot of people.
But when I think of ‘dangerous’ in an online space, I’m generally not thinking ‘dangerous to fun’. I’m thinking… is this person a stalker? A doxer? A sex pest? It’s the difference between a person being a risk to someone else’s safety in one form or another versus just being an asshole.
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It’s also entirely possible they’ve changed and don’t exhibit the same behaviours as they used to.
Though I didn’t mean to reduce my point to ‘dangerous to fun.’ They were a consummate manipulator who wielded their “enthusiasm” and “helpfulness” like a cudgel to get their way without caring about the capacity to cause actual damage to people. So, while not a stalker or a sex pest, they were predatory in their way, and often more dangerous because they were appreciated.
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Thanks everyone. I really appreciate it! You hear so many horror stories about Spider and McGuire that they sound very scary to a person who has never interacted with them.
bird's still the word
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Having not been around when either was in MU but having come across them in their other contexts, my impression has always been like they’re bad exes to the community - they’re probably fine where they are now but the MU community will always remember them through that particular interaction. And at this point both are just either moved on from it or have come back under different handles and aren’t making waves.
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Spider showed up on Darkwater years ago and wanted to keep a low profile due to their reputation. I can change, I have changed, they said. @Cobalt said, fine, but you have to actually play in a cooperative way, and we’re not going to cover who you are for you. (Cobalt might remember this story better than I; it was long ago and far away - like a decade or more now.)
Of course, it didn’t last. I can’t recall if someone figured them out or if they were just not being a good collaborator and thus making people suspect. We as staff told players that we understood their concerns and were monitoring things to make sure that Spider was in compliance with our expectations that Spider themself had agreed to. At that point, I gave Spider their one and only warning.
I called Spider in and said, you said you’d be cooperative and share plots, but you’re engaging in manipulative behaviors. A lie of omission is still a lie, and people think your behavior is shady. What’s more, I think your behavior is shady, and if you keep it up, I’m going to ask you to leave my game for the good of others. Your presence here is a kindness because Cobalt is a pushover, but I am not, so clean up your act or get gone. And Spider insisted that they’d followed the rules to the letter and that people were reading too much into it all and it was all just perception. I was like, you have to follow the spirit of the law and perception is important. Perception informs reality, and as such, you’ve got to convince my players that you’re following the rules and playing with them cooperatively, not me.
And that is where we largely parted ways with Spider. They realized that I meant it about convincing the other players that they were working with them and they realized that I was not sympathetic to them but to the playerbase as a whole. And they left without any fanfare, and it was really a non-incident in the end.
So while I would say that Spider is not dangerous, and Spider is self-aware enough to know when they’re not wanted, Spider did not manage to convince me that they could play well with others on a MU. Old habits die hard, but outside of a MU experience, Spider is probably a nice person.
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@Tributary said in How dangerous is VASpider?:
I called Spider in and said, you said you’d be cooperative and share plots, but you’re engaging in manipulative behaviors. A lie of omission is still a lie, and people think your behavior is shady. What’s more, I think your behavior is shady, and if you keep it up, I’m going to ask you to leave my game for the good of others. Your presence here is a kindness because Cobalt is a pushover, but I am not, so clean up your act or get gone. And Spider insisted that they’d followed the rules to the letter and that people were reading too much into it all and it was all just perception. I was like, you have to follow the spirit of the law and perception is important. Perception informs reality, and as such, you’ve got to convince my players that you’re following the rules and playing with them cooperatively, not me.
I had a very similar conversation with them about their behavior on Haunted Memories. Their response was to try to convince me that I ought to put them on a PIP with clear guidelines and regular check-ins and coaching sessions to ensure their behavior was in compliance and meeting expectations, because that’s what they would have to do with an underperforming employee at work.
There are definitely people who will use “I am following the rules exactly as they’re laid out!” as both a hammer and a shield if they are allowed to. Spider is one of them.
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@Tributary Agreed.
I think the main “danger” of Spider, outside of problems for those who have been directly manipulated etc, is their… pervasiveness. In MUing, at the very least, they have a tendency to get in to some position of mediocre authority because it’s a job that needs doing… and before you really know what’s going on they’ve carved out a niche for themselves and have way more authority than they should.
@Rinel if your friend is part of any online communities with Spider, they should probably stay near to an exit. The shun and shame stick is their second favourite weapon after surprise, surprise and fear… never mind.
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Wasn’t it Spider who lied about having cancer to get sympathy (and money?)? And Surreality would certainly say they were were dangerous as they did thousands of dollars in damage to Surr’s home and refused to pay a cent.
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If VASpider was my coworker…
Would I be cordial and potentially even friendly to them at work? You bet!
Would I go to an after work social event where they’d be present? Certainly!
Would I hang out with them one on one after work? Probably not.
Would they be invited to my D&D game? Absolutely not.
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@SpaceKhomeini said in How dangerous is VASpider?:
A friend of mine sent me a vaspider tumblr meme last year. Said friend had never mu*d ever.
I laughed until I cried because this world is too fucking weird,
Your friend and I must move in the same meme circles.
I don’t have any experience with VAS that I know of, they way predate my forays into MUSH, but I’ve seen their posts on social media, double taked, then tapped a more “in the know” friend to confirm it’s the same one.
Weirdly small world tbh. I guess the same traits that would predispose a person towards staffing a text game would also lend themselves towards small-time internet celebrity status?
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VASpider is probably not physically dangerous. Emotionally, they’re a heinous person and I would steer far away.
(Also, is it ‘he’ now? I can’t keep track, last I heard they went by ‘they’.)
In Occam I trust.
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The danger Spider poses is likely not in actual violence, but if allowed, they will take over your life and destroy you mentally, emotionally, and financially. They will lie, pretend to not be themself, stalk you. They will find your IRL phone number. They will bypass blocks. They will find your other accounts. They will convince you they have changed, including months-long efforts, only to almost immediately drag you right back into abusive patterns. They will purposefully befriend your friends and then lie to you about those friends and to those friends about you to isolate you and make you dependent on them.
The kind of danger Spider poses can’t be understated - when someone stabs you, there is a clear line that’s been crossed. You can prosecute them for assault. You can go to the hospital.
What Spider does will stay with you for the rest of your life.
Following them on tumblr or bluesky or whatever is fine. As far as I know, they have vaguely progressive and positive takes on social media. The danger lies in being friends with them, and especially in letting any kind of sexual or romantic entanglements happen. Do not engage. Do not DM with Spider. Don’t go to a Discord with them in it, or invite them to yours.
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He and they both, with I believe a preference for he.
@RiotDawn said in How dangerous is VASpider?:
Following them on tumblr or bluesky or whatever is fine. As far as I know, they have vaguely progressive and positive takes on social media. The danger lies in being friends with them, and especially in letting any kind of sexual or romantic entanglements happen. Do not engage. Do not DM with Spider. Don’t go to a Discord with them in it, or invite them to yours.
Perfect. Ty. There’s no risk of any of that happening. I appreciate it.
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And this is why I don’t Discord and am selective about what I share, etc.
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I don’t know if it’s fully fair to judge someone forever for who they were in the past, but that being said, I was on a game with them a few years ago and the behavior described in these older and linked threads is still going strong.
Spider is an intelligent person. They’re self-aware. They know they have these issues. They’re apologetic and explanatory about them. But it doesn’t seem to stop the issues from cropping up, so I eventually politely severed ties and went on my way.
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@Val said in How dangerous is VASpider?:
I don’t know if it’s fully fair to judge someone forever for who they were in the past
In general, I’d agree to a point. I’d perhaps not judge someone, but would be wary of them based on prior behaviour until change has been demonstrated - simply for my own safety/sanity.
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Less dangerous than a heaping handful of other manipulative liars in the hobby.
This is not because Spider is better, but because people will believe you when you tell them Spider is being a manipulative choad.
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@RiotDawn The danger also extended to friends of people they were ‘friends’ or close with. Not just the people they “like”. It seemed as though if they felt like someone was getting “too much” attention they’d make every effort to drive them off… not only with narcissistic tactics to isolate friends but with seriously toxic and insidious social manipulation and malicious gossip for those that they felt were a threat to their “friendships”. They have done this across mediums and social platforms and over years.
They don’t have to be grooming someone to abuse them.
It’s entirely reasonable to use caution and clear boundaries in future interactions with someone like this. If they’ve changed, they will understand.
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@TNP said in How dangerous is VASpider?:
Wasn’t it Spider who lied about having cancer to get sympathy (and money?)? And Surreality would certainly say they were were dangerous as they did thousands of dollars in damage to Surr’s home and refused to pay a cent.
Holy damn, I had forgotten about that story. I remember when Surr first talked about it. I believe they said it was ‘back cancer’ or something like that. That’s probably too mean to say it like that, but goddamn, we digging up some old old WORA lore.
