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Equalizing Character Progression
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There’s several schools of thought when it comes to character progression.
For some there is the abstract, character personality and relationship growth which does not necessarily require a change on a sheet at all.
For others there is the ‘gaming’ aspect of it, the sheet is quantified by a variety of characteristics, and progression comes from adding to the sheet.
Many times this requires the earning of nebulous ‘experience points’ or ‘character points’ in order to equate to some sort of systemic method of balance, which in itself is something attempted by the system.
So really, in order to ‘equalize’ character progression, first one must define ‘character progression’ so that everyone is talking about and discussing the same thing.
As it stands there are so many systems, crunchy, hard, soft, abstract, that it’s about finding the system that works best for you as an individual as a place to start.
Take, for example, the systemic differences between ShadowRun 4th edition and 5th edition. They are /incredibly/ similar in most aspects, except where the limits are defined. In 4th edition you could at chargen create a character who literally could not get /better/ at their chosen role. In 5th edition that wasn’t possible.
Both allowed for different kinds of character progression, but one was more abstract and one was more systemic.
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@farfalla I don’t think you’re trying to be an asshole. I don’t think you’re saying that FS3 is bad. I’m just trying to explain FS3’s design choice and how the system as a whole works, in case your negative experience came from someone doing something nonstandard, and it’s that game’s choices you didn’t enjoy, rather than the system’s choices.
But FS3 is never (without a lot of tweaking) going to represent the Hero’s Journey well. It’s not built to show a callow farm boy becoming an ace pilot and space wizard. What it is built to do is take characters with a broad range of abilities and throw them into PvE environments and allow them to improve their skills slightly over the course of their story. Just like trying to make FS3 do Star Wars or D&D, if someone tries to make FS3 do the Hero’s Journey, the results are going to be wonky and not representative of the system itself.
Formerly known as Seraphim73 (he/him)
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@Roadspike
Yeah, I think it’s important to underline, in any broader system comparison, that talking about ‘FS3’ and ‘How SL did FS3’ aren’t really the same thing.Without getting into it too much, because I spent two years in the Spirit Lake Spell Mines and my perspective is always going to be so fundamentally different it’s not worth getting into, SL’s spells were a unique XP sink that no other FS3 game has had, so that experience is not comparable to how any other FS3 game has worked or does work. If anything the existence of the magic system steered spending AWAY from Action Skills in ways that were kinda interesting to observe from a player behavior perspective. It’s part of what makes me interested in alternative XP sinks more broadly.
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@Roadspike Oh that was specifically in response to the discussion of different styles being suited to different games and all being valid, not you.
I was asked why I won’t play established FS3 games. The answer is that I don’t like being behind, for reasons I (poorly) tried to explain. That’s the only position I have about it, I’m not trying to argue about the validity of the entire system.
as previously stated, good day.
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@farfalla Yup! I was trying to point out that unless you’re on a game with alternative XP sinks like SL, or you -started- your character way behind, you’re not likely to be very far behind on an FS3 game. But to your experience, there certainly are ways to get far behind on an FS3 game, but they (the ones that I can think of) are counter to the design intention of the FS3 system (although may be perfectly in line with the design intention of the individual game).
So you might actually like an FS3 game that followed the design intention of the system (unless there are other things you dislike about the system or about Ares, which is totally legit).
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I have not played an Ares game to any meaningful amount (async is not my jam) but it seems like I should give it a shot if just to see how the equalized progression plays out in practice over time.
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@farfalla It’s all good. Lots of people don’t like FS3 and I don’t mind. I was just curious.
It seems, though, that things are being painted as two extremes:
- XP doesn’t matter at all so why even bother having it.
- XP is so super important that it leads to a dino effect and you’re going to be underpowered if you start the game later.
I see a middle ground there, where XP can be used for some minor progressions (“I’m learning French to talk to my new friend” or “I’m taking up horseback riding” or “I was a complete newb but now I’m kinda competent”) without it being a big deal.
If it’s a big deal to you, hey, that’s fine. You do you.
Objectively speaking, in FS3 you’ll get more power disparity between characters depending on how they spend their points in chargen (which is, again, by design) than you’ll ever get from XP.
@shit-piss-love said in Equalizing Character Progression:
I have not played an Ares game to any meaningful amount (async is not my jam) but it seems like I should give it a shot if just to see how the equalized progression plays out in practice over time.
I would just point out that what we’re talking about is the FS3 skills system. While many Ares games use it, it is not exclusive to Ares (it exists on PennMUSH too) and many Ares games use different systems. Ares != FS3.
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@shit-piss-love said in Equalizing Character Progression:
I have not played an Ares game to any meaningful amount (async is not my jam) but it seems like I should give it a shot if just to see how the equalized progression plays out in practice over time.
My experience is that people don’t fuss about XP much. You’re going to hit the cap within a year, probably, and most games also have delays on spending points, so progression is just very slow! It’s always nice to make a number go up, but I genuinely don’t notice a lot of people worried about it, because to be honest, what you come out of in chargen is largely going to be your character for a long time.
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@Faraday said in Equalizing Character Progression:
It seems, though, that things are being painted as two extremes:
- XP doesn’t matter at all so why even bother having it.
- XP is so super important that it leads to a dino effect and you’re going to be underpowered if you start the game later.
It’s a perception issue for me. Or two separate personal preferences that are at odds. Stats aren’t that important to me (and also I don’t understand them). If a game could exist without xp I’d be fine with it, so if xp isn’t going to have a big impact then I’d rather not have it. Additionally, the mental factor of knowing I can never catch up is a disincentive for me, regardless of how much it actually matters statistically.
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@Pyrephox said in Equalizing Character Progression:
@shit-piss-love said in Equalizing Character Progression:
I have not played an Ares game to any meaningful amount (async is not my jam) but it seems like I should give it a shot if just to see how the equalized progression plays out in practice over time.
My experience is that people don’t fuss about XP much. You’re going to hit the cap within a year, probably, and most games also have delays on spending points, so progression is just very slow! It’s always nice to make a number go up, but I genuinely don’t notice a lot of people worried about it, because to be honest, what you come out of in chargen is largely going to be your character for a long time.
Bold & Italics by me. (Thanks Pyre!)
Directed to thread:
This is where the dinosaur thing comes in. It’s where ‘catching up’ is almost impossible, in certain systems and genre’s.
When progression is slow, sheet wise, it engenders this feeling that if you don’t start at the very beginning you aren’t going to be relevant. That if a person’s character isn’t one of the ‘best’ at something, then they have no value.
This kind of ultra-competitive mindset can create negative and hostile environments in a game, or it can create diversity as people try to become the best at their thing.
I honestly think a lot of ideas on this are going to end up similar to system choice. Those who prefer more narrative growth are going to play certain systems, while those who prefer more gaming growth are going to prefer others, and then there will be some people who like both. Or neither.
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@Mourne said in Equalizing Character Progression:
@Pyrephox said in Equalizing Character Progression:
@shit-piss-love said in Equalizing Character Progression:
I have not played an Ares game to any meaningful amount (async is not my jam) but it seems like I should give it a shot if just to see how the equalized progression plays out in practice over time.
My experience is that people don’t fuss about XP much. You’re going to hit the cap within a year, probably, and most games also have delays on spending points, so progression is just very slow! It’s always nice to make a number go up, but I genuinely don’t notice a lot of people worried about it, because to be honest, what you come out of in chargen is largely going to be your character for a long time.
Bold & Italics by me. (Thanks Pyre!)
Directed to thread:
This is where the dinosaur thing comes in. It’s where ‘catching up’ is almost impossible, in certain systems and genre’s.
When progression is slow, sheet wise, it engenders this feeling that if you don’t start at the very beginning you aren’t going to be relevant. That if a person’s character isn’t one of the ‘best’ at something, then they have no value.
This kind of ultra-competitive mindset can create negative and hostile environments in a game, or it can create diversity as people try to become the best at their thing.
I honestly think a lot of ideas on this are going to end up similar to system choice. Those who prefer more narrative growth are going to play certain systems, while those who prefer more gaming growth are going to prefer others, and then there will be some people who like both. Or neither.
Eh, not in F3S. There’s an XP cap, as I mentioned in my post. There are no real dinosaurs in F3S games unless it has a significant other system bolted on, because past a certain point, the ONLY thing you can spend XP on is Background Skills, and that point is the same for everyone.
There’s a discrepancy between someone who’s been on a game for a year and someone who just started, but a) it’s not very large and b) thanks to the XP cap, the newbie WILL catch up.
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@Pyrephox I wasn’t talking specifically about FS3, I snagged only cuz of the bolded parts and was using it to generalize an overall feeling that seems to permeate some systems/games in contrast to others.
I personally don’t have much like for FS3 since it’s so easy to be ‘better than nearly anyone else’ at chargen, and nearly impossible to catch up with, due to fixed xp progression. Even though that conversation should be forked really, FS3 has, in my experience with it, some pretty drastic potential to be min-maxxed which keeps me from enjoying it.
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I think it’s useful to look at what models for advancement exist in other games/systems.
There are many narrative style games where there simply is no advancement, except by special GM approval. It takes the FS3 “you had 20+ years to get to this point, you’re not going to change much” philosophy to an extreme.
On the opposite spectrum is the carrot-on-stick model. XP is a reward to keep players playing. Most MMOs and level-based systems subscribe to this model. A new player or replacement might get a fast-track to higher levels just so they can hang with their friends.
Some games treat XP as more of an OOC reward. Shadowrun for instance gives you a tiny amount of XP (aka Karma) per session, but most of the rewards are for good RP, clever solutions, teamwork, etc.
There’s no right or wrong way to do XP, but it’s important to consider why you’re giving XP in the first place before considering things like “should it be equal” or “should there be catchup XP”.
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@Pyrephox said in Equalizing Character Progression:
There are no real dinosaurs in F3S games unless it has a significant other system bolted on, because past a certain point, the ONLY thing you can spend XP on is Background Skills, and that point is the same for everyone.
There’s a discrepancy between someone who’s been on a game for a year and someone who just started, but a) it’s not very large and b) thanks to the XP cap, the newbie WILL catch up.
Unless you build your character poorly in chargen, because
@Faraday said in Equalizing Character Progression:
Objectively speaking, in FS3 you’ll get more power disparity between characters depending on how they spend their points in chargen (which is, again, by design) than you’ll ever get from XP.
Mummy Pun? MUMMY PUN!
She/her -
@Jennkryst said in Equalizing Character Progression:
Unless you build your character poorly in chargen, because
@Faraday said in Equalizing Character Progression:
Objectively speaking, in FS3 you’ll get more power disparity between characters depending on how they spend their points in chargen (which is, again, by design) than you’ll ever get from XP.
Yes but a decent game-runner will advise you in chargen if you’re screwing up your points, or help you out in shuffling around points if you get into gameplay and later realize that you messed something up.
Throwing faster progression into the mix isn’t the right solution for “what if you mess up your chargen”.
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@Faraday In every single FS3 game I’ve played, the game runners did none of that.
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@Mourne In every single FS3 game I’ve run, I’ve done this.
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@Mourne said in Equalizing Character Progression:
@Faraday In every single FS3 game I’ve played, the game runners did none of that.
Obviously I can’t control how games use it. It’s freely available and open source, so folks can do what they want. All I can say is how it’s designed to be used, and how I use it when I run games. I am also very open about the fact that it’s not designed to work for every game, and what types of games it is designed for. If folks are going to do things that run contrary to its design philosophy, it’s not gonna work as well. In fact, it may work terribly.
And even if it’s done perfectly, someone still may not like it. There are plenty of systems I don’t like. Everyone’s entitled to their preferences.
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For the game that I’ve sort of white boarded but haven’t been able to code into existence, the XP progression has multiple components that eventually should bring people close enough together so as to not have massive disparities.
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I am going to use a game system that already has a diminishing returns function (In this case, I want to use CP:Red, but it could just as easily be any other classless system with cost to buy up being more than previous levels, and so any SR past 3rd edition when karma pool goes away, no D&D or D&D like systems).
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The more you participate in play, the more xp you earn per week, with a minimum (small) but no real maximum (but see point 3 for why that’s not a big concern).
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Anything beyond the minimum xp is multiplied by a 1/current xp. So, if you have 100 xp and you put in Y amount of activity. You’d accrue the minimum + Y/100 xp till you hit 101, then it’s Y/101, and so on. The goal with this is that characters who join new, still feel new, but can accrue early xp pretty quickly so they don’t feel NEW forever. And could get within a close range of the majority of players within a reasonable amount of time. The amount earned, and minimum xp can be adjusted should they not work out correctly or needing to slow/speed up progression based upon ‘feel’. (This is what I need help with coding).
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The last thing I would point out is that gear purchases and monetary progression will all be handled by various systems to remove staffer delay for most everything. (I need help here, but I think I can manage most of it based upon prior limited coding experience and the ability to manage with staff until complete).
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Referenced by
shit-piss-love
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I’ve been mulling over this for a bit.
How do/would you guys handle something like Beats on a game where you want XP to be even among both new and old PCs? For those unfamiliar with CofD rules, Beats are handed to players after their characters do certain things (completing a goal, nearly getting killed, etc) and a handful of Beats equals 1XP. To me, it’s a pretty integral part of the mechanics (so getting rid of it isn’t an option), but obviously leans towards more active players. How do you still reward players for getting Beats without letting them run too far ahead of players that may be less active or unable to churn Beats as quickly as others?
