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    KestrelK Offline
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    Recent Best Controversial
    • RE: Liberation Drama!?

      I don’t know Siren. But if I were in Siren’s shoes, reading this thread, I would likely conclude I was in the right not to engage with @gashlycrumb. Not based on any moral judgement, but just based on this seeming likely to result in more emotional energy than most people want to expend OOC.

      I think it’s best to focus on outcomes over intentions. Specifically:

      @Pavel said:
      The best approach is to leave, not to cause more problems. Either the staffer is intentionally ignoring you, or their backlog is so bad that it’s negatively impacting you. Either way, you leave and hope for better elsewhere.

      Ultimately does it really matter if the motive was malicious, abusive, absent-mindedness, laziness, apathy, exhaustion, avoidance, or anything else?

      I recently left a game because I didn’t want to keep waiting around for staff to follow up on stuff. Genuinely no idea if they were busy, forgetful, distracted, or actually didn’t like me. I just didn’t want to be in that dynamic of feeling like a dog waiting at the dinner table for scraps, because it makes me feel like crap.

      Forget about what staff was thinking, decide what you want/expect, and pick where to spend your energy accordingly.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: Liberation Drama!?

      @nobody said:
      I’m not going to keep engaging because I haven’t MUSHed in a long time, and only hop on now and then to chat with a couple friends who don’t use Discord.

      This is always an odd thing to say while choosing to engage, on a seemingly anonymous account that only posts about one particular game.

      No dog in this race, don’t eat seafood, but I know fish when I smell it.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: Liberation Drama!?

      @MidnightCreature said:
      Kraken mentioned on channel that he intended to use ChatGPT to rewrite or rework the website/wiki.

      wtf

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)

      @MisterBoring said:

      @voiceinthevoid Why can’t we have non-creeper vampire players who non consensually force people into diner RP? “My Tremere with the Eat Food merit dominates you into coming into Flo’s Diner and having a slice of pecan pie and casual conversation with me.”

      You’re joking but I was actually looking into a kind of “shared interests” RP matchmaking system. You list what you’re interested in like social/bar RP, romance, conflict RP, factional/political RP, maybe even spicier stuff like themes of bigotry and SA etc.

      Then if Jack & Jill both select social/politics but have no other interests in common, the matchmaker lists them as having 2 interests in common, which they can pull up a list of. However if Jack is into romance but Jill isn’t, and Jill is into SA but Jack isn’t, then the matchmaker won’t list these themes for either of them. E.g. Jill won’t even know Jack wants romance, and Jack won’t know Jill wants SA.

      I like this because it destigmatises things a bit, like as long as someone isn’t forcing X onto you then there’s no reason to judge them for liking something you don’t. And additionally because I kind of think that the big scare topics, like SA, aren’t the only kinds of RP that shouldn’t be forced, or which can lead to awkward incompatibilities. Some people hate bar RP, some people hate big scenes, some people hate conflict, some people hate politics. And when you put SA on the same list as social or conflict RP, it’s less like a kink list and more just general preferneces.

      I recall at one point I was playing a noir-themed vampire, and someone who thought I was cool and wanted to be my friend kept asking me to come to their girls nights and get milkshakes etc. They meant no harm but honestly it just made me feel like they were downselling my concept. So in that example I’d have selected no bar/social RP, yes to faction/politics/conflict RP.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)

      @Pavel said:

      @Gashlycrumb said:

      pausing a set amount of time at each room

      I remember more than a few games basically requiring you to do this part, and if there was anyone in those rooms you had to basically stop, engage in brief “passing through” roleplay and then continue. What a quality experience that was.

      Still the case on a lot of games. The term for not doing this is “speedwalking” and is considered a faux pas.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: Paroxysm - split off

      @Shygaming said:

      Nobody has asked me anything about the game. It feels like people are far more interested in the possibility that there is some scandal to uncover or in repeatedly telling me they disagree with a design decision than they are in Paroxysm itself. Nobody seems particularly curious about the systems, the setting, the direction, or what I am actually trying to build.

      You didn’t build anything. A LLM did, on top of someone else’s codebase.

      You’ve already been advised, with a lot more tact than I possess, that the attitude on BMD is broadly hostile to LLM usage in this hobby. By now if you had the capacity for original thought, rather than outsourcing it to a clanker, you likely should’ve also pieced together that the attitude towards exposing other players to themes of sexual assault, even more so without their consent and interest, is also a pretty universal anathema. So what you’re doing here is the equivalent of a Millennial fashion designer turning up at a campus Freshers’ Week and weeping, “why won’t anyone buy my skinny jeans?” This is absolutely not your target market, even if you did have anything creative to contribute to a creative hobby, run and populated by creative people whose developers and builders have a long history of putting in real work. I mean, I’m sorry, what do you want us to do here? Clap for Claude? The website is so generic I had to check the nearest bottle of tequila to be sure there wasn’t a lethal reason I feel like I’m seeing double, triple, quadruple the replicability of all that slop.

      But even if there were posters or lurkers here who are pro-AI and anti-collaborative-storytelling, the latter of which is your own description, it still wouldn’t matter to seasoned community members half as much as the assurance of community safety in this hobby. This is a small niche, and people join games largely through word-of-mouth and reputation. Under ordinary circumstances, I don’t think this requires you to self-identify; I’ve joined games run by total strangers. But I’ve also bounced just as fast at the first glimpse of a red flag, because they hadn’t yet earned the grace of trust and benefit of the doubt. And here you’re waving a lot of red flags, from the actual theme of the game, to its codebase, to the sea of AI slop, to your own stated ethos of, “It’s actually good if players often don’t have fun, including having their character raped, but only and I mean only if they really, really don’t want that to happen.” Like … what?

      It’s giving 5’11 guy thinks people on apps are shallow because he can’t get any matches, and no one even asks about his podcast, but his profile says “Free the Tate Brothers”.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)

      CvC apology form

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)

      Calling it wish fulfilment is wild. I had my character attacked at sea, drowned, swallowed by a whale, and kept trapped in an underwater dimension for a week at one point, none of which I wish to experience IRL, nor did I require control over the story, or need to know what was going to happen in order to enjoy it.

      But I went along with it because a friend of mine was running the story, I happen to trust them, and was feeling fatigued enough with the main grid at the time to say “hey fyi if you wanna see this through don’t feel bad about keeping me off-grid for a bit, I could use a break anyway”.

      On a separate occasion, a friend of mine actually killed my character. It turned out neither of us actually intended the outcome, because they’d emoted attacking, I’d mistakenly interpreted their intention as killing the character (which would’ve been a rational consequence for the action I’d taken), so I emoted dying, they OOCly went “wtf I didn’t mean it like that”, I responded “lol oops”, they said, “hang on I can contrive a way to resurrect you” and I said “nah dw I’m good, this is a good ending for the character”.

      The wish being fulfilled here is for a good story that everyone involved enjoys. Everyone should wish for that, it’s the point of storytelling! It’s actually super not necessary, even in a story where the outcome isn’t predetermined, and conflict between characters is permitted without prior consent, to have any party involved be OOCly miserable.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)

      @Shygaming said:

      @Kestrel said:

      @Shygaming said:

      And I’ve seen that dynamic poison games before. I genuinely cannot count how many times I’ve seen some supposedly awful villain doing horrific things to another character while everyone involved OOC is having a wonderful time and the “victim” is actively helping arrange it. It stops functioning as an unpleasant consequence of living in a horrible setting and starts functioning as content being provided for people who want that content.

      This has to be one of the most buckwild paragraphs I’ve ever read on any RP forum. I’m actually more weirded out by this than the opinions on SA stuff which is very much not my kink.

      Why do you want people’s experience of a hobby to be bad?

      Seek help.

      A story can only really work when characters are allowed to react to things in believable ways.

      I don’t want the player’s experience to be bad. I want characters to sometimes have bad experiences because conflict and adversity are what make stories interesting.

      Can you imagine how compelling The Handmaid’s Tale would have been if all the women were actually into what was happening to them? If everyone in Gilead had enthusiastically consented then you have not made the story safer. You have removed the entire point of the story.

      It’s called roleplay. If you can’t convincingly portray negative emotions without feeling them in real life, you’re not roleplaying or storytelling, you’re engaging in some sort of glorified chat server where everyone just bullies each other.

      Margaret Atwood didn’t need to be physically held down in order to convincingly write characters experiencing the same. Neither do her readers, in order to find the story empathic and emotionally fulfilling.

      But I picked up The Handmaid’s Tale because I wanted to read it. Her books are content for people who want that content. That’s how all media/entertainment works. I watch a horror movie because I think I’ll enjoy watching a horror movie, I read a book because I think I’ll enjoy reading a book, I emote my character loitering outside a maximum security facility because the risk of being caught and interrogated sounds fun to me.

      I play antagonists all the time. The scenario where everyone is having fun and enjoying the story, even as their characters are screaming, is absolutely the ideal. That’s my dopamine hit, knowing how much fun everyone is having and that I could facilitate that. What enjoyment do you derive out of knowing your fellow players aren’t having fun?

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)

      @Shygaming said:

      And I’ve seen that dynamic poison games before. I genuinely cannot count how many times I’ve seen some supposedly awful villain doing horrific things to another character while everyone involved OOC is having a wonderful time and the “victim” is actively helping arrange it. It stops functioning as an unpleasant consequence of living in a horrible setting and starts functioning as content being provided for people who want that content.

      This has to be one of the most buckwild paragraphs I’ve ever read on any RP forum. I’m actually more weirded out by this than the opinions on SA stuff which is very much not my kink.

      Why do you want people’s experience of a hobby to be bad?

      Seek help.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)

      @Pavel said:

      @Tez said:

      There’s something to be said about the fact that we are more comfy with killing someone.

      I don’t have the time to do an in-depth literature review on the subject, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there is something of an evolutionary bias (eta: either social evolution or genetic) that influenced our sociological development. I can, for instance, easily imagine a scenario in which my killing someone is the correct moral, ethical, and legal choice.

      Sorry, you’ve just tripped one of my special interests.

      The Evolution of Desire, by David M. Buss, Chapter 6: Staying Together

      Free to listen to as an audiobook with Spotify Premium

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)

      @hellfrog said:

      So the issue is other peoples’ cavalier attitudes towards their own self-examination of their motives and behavior? Internally?? Because previously she stated she wanted it in the setting, but not - involving pcs, I guess? Which begs a lot of questions, and assumptions, and questions about the assumptions.

      And maybe a little alarm at the assumption one can diagnose a stranger by a behavior that may be an indicator of a possible problem or may be completely harmless.

      What questions and assumptions does it beg, exactly? I think I could not have been more specific in the point I made and example I gave, so I can’t infer the gish gallop response was in good faith.

      If a person derives enjoyment from writing about children engaged in graphic sexual acts, I would assume that person is a paedophile, which is not harmless.

      If a person enjoys collecting members of the opposite sex, pitting them against each other in competition for their affection, and exercising control over them, I would assume that person is an abuser who does not see members of the opposite sex as complete human beings. And by the way, “it’s just my kink bro, plus they all literally consented, it was an empowering women’s movement, they asked to be my slaves!” is exactly the excuse NXIVM cult-leader Keith Raniere gave for this behaviour.

      There is an obvious difference between an example I made of implied NPC abuse that takes place off-screen, and is presented for PCs to engage in the moral consequences of, versus a repeated/back-and-forth on-screen graphic sexual scene engaged in for personal gratification, with a real person’s sexual participation as a prop. Not knowing for a fact that it’s being done for immediate sexual gratification is irrelevant; firstly, because this is frequently enough the case to make a safe assumption about, and secondly because in cases of sexual abuse, it actually isn’t about climactic gratification, but about power.

      I realise that a lot of posters, and especially Gen X, are traumatised from this history of slut-shaming in the hobby/IRL, but to act like the opposite extreme of unbridled sexual permissiveness doesn’t also do immense harm is blind at best, and an attitude that enables abusers at worst. Which is why a lot of puriteen Gen Z these days who grew up on Andrew Tate, Bonnie Blue, and readily available BDSM porn everywhere they look, reject that attitude so strongly. I’m somewhere in the middle both ideologically and generationally. My stance is that overcorrecting towards either extreme does harm. There should be limits, and one that was put forward earlier in this cross-thread debate (tag removed) is definitely a good start. The consequence I’m advocating for is that game staff should not ignore the potential for harm, nor treat “consent” as a magic word that automatically absolves anyone of harm inflicted.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)

      @Tez said:

      I was talking to a buddy today and I think one of the reasons I am uncomfortable with what can feel like the sanitization of themes is because there is so much external pressure in the real world that threatens to sanitize […] Sexual content in general, when you look at payment processors.

      There is generally a cultural pushback whenever things head too far in a certain direction. I personally think the sexual liberation movement peaked with Gen X & Millennials.

      I don’t trust anyone who believes in any kind of extremes. All of life is nuanced and shades of grey. You can have too much of a good thing. All or nothing radical thinking is something I consign to my 20s. You can have too many cats. You can add too much garlic. You can have too much sexual liberation.

      My generation grew up with Sex and the City, American Pie, and widely available internet porn which, I recall on first inquisitive viewing, being genuinely baffled to even try and comprehend how the depicted acts were physically possible. And in all candour, I don’t think my life has been terribly enriched by gaining this knowledge.

      We grew up with Cool Girl before it had the name Cool Girl; this idea that a person (but especially a woman) is invalid unless they perform extreme sexuality without limits.

      Within this framework, a person is not a person, they are parts. They do not have wants and needs, they have status to earn and prove. I do not see that as “sex positive”, I see that as a broken and fragmented understanding of sexual identity as a kind of fashion accessory, much like stiletto heels, displayed even if it hurts, and existing separate from the actual person.

      I am strongly of the opinion that these dynamics play out in online games and communities as well. I’ve seen them play out on Haven, IRE games (the latter of which I played mostly while underage, and were not marketed as “sex games”), and even the chillest and most expertly run MUSHes I’ve played.

      I think it is blind to ignore the ways in which these experiences can cause real harm to players, both through other players and their own choosing. A couple examples:

      1. A player writes a fantasy in which his adult character engages in incest with an underage character. This is repeatedly training his mind to associate sexual desire and arousal with the fantasy of an underage family member. It’s not his fault if these fantasies already lay dormant, but it is his fault and his choice to reinforce and further explore them. I cannot be convinced that this is unlikely to cause future harm to his ability to maintain an appropriate view and relationship with his own underage family members.
      2. A game has a skewed gender ratio, more female than male. Because of this, male characters are in high demand by partner-seeking heterosexual female characters. This gives the players of male characters an advantage to pit female characters against each other in competition. It encourages the players of female characters to seek to prove themselves sexually above other female characters, to settle for unequal nonmonogamous arrangements, to ignore mistreatment by the players of male characters, to alter their characters and storytelling for male approval, and to blur IC/OOC boundaries in order to retain their attention. I cannot be convinced that a male-led harem on this game can truly be assumed to be fully consensual, on the part of potentially lonely players using this game as a source of self-esteem and validation, or that it fosters healthy dynamics. I don’t think it’s good for men to ride this kind of ego trip, and I don’t think it’s good for women to vicariously experience this erosion of self through a sexual fantasy that isn’t even really her own.

      None of this is to say that sexual RP should be disallowed or even discouraged. I engage, have engaged, and will continue to engage in graphic sexual RP.

      But I personally try to be incredibly mindful of the ways that sexual RP can cause harm both to myself and others. I try to notice unhealthy dynamics, some of which spark concern, others anger and moral disgust, because I’ve been on the receiving end and know firsthand the profound degree of psychic damage they can cause. It would absolutely kill me, were I staffing any kind of game, to imagine that my action or inaction had caused that kind of harm to someone else.

      I’m not just worried about children. The players of online roleplaying games tend to originate from a baseline crop that, IME, is on average more neurodivergent, less mentally and emotionally stable, less romantically/sexually successful in real life, etc., and that creates a fertile ground for exploitation and abuse. I’m not at all comfortable with anyone who washes their hands of having to ever think about that by simply saying, “they’re adults”. I’m especially concerned when game staff say stuff like this, because it makes me wonder how they handle parasocial attachment from their players, when in a position of power.

      And again, this is not to say that SA RP specifically should be allowed or disallowed, etc. But it is to say that I very strongly reject any kind of blasé attitude that it is always acceptable so long as it occurs between adults and is technically consensual. Nothing is, IMO.

      Consent is a lot more complex than many people here are giving credit. Consent is not a moral blank cheque or a get out of jail free card. If you harmed someone, you harmed them. You can also harm yourself. It’s not magically fine regardless of surrounding context just because they nodded and said, “harder daddy” while clearly bleeding.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)

      🤔

      Maybe the safest and most sensible way to enjoy story-rich CNC RP is to just do it on a game that forbids it, but behind a closed door, in a private room that can’t be spied on, and contrive a reason to never tell anybody IC or OOC.

      If I never have to hear about it, I’m not gonna kinkshame it.

      This applies to about 99% of things that annoy me on MU* tbh.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: Haven

      Purely for clarification, paedophilia RP was not against Haven’s rules, as set out by Tyr and largely enforced by Discordance.

      Daed, as story staff, largely did not have the authority to enforce rules, nor to act against players who irked his personal distaste. His job was just orchestrating the game’s overarching metaplot.

      When he PK’d a character played by Tykune, whom he caught engaging in paedophilia RP, that was actually not within the technical scope of what he ought to have been doing as story staff. In the most technical sense, arguably that was an abuse of staff power. It’s just that literally no one was mad about it, except I guess for Tykune, who still crashes out about it on Reddit every so often. Also about being denied the right to play an anthropomorphic bunny rabbit by Legend of the Jedi’s staff, but that’s a whole other story.

      I think I probably hold some sort of record for most forum-banned/channel-muted Haven player so it probably goes without saying that I don’t give a flying fuck about whether Daed was allowed to do that or not per Haven’s largely unwritten, vibes-based rules, and I’m not saying any of this to shame him, because I don’t think he was in the wrong.

      But it’s probably a good example of how Wild West Haven’s community management style is, with no actual bannings or rules, just the unspoken expectations that players/staff will bully each other in a prolonged war of attrition if anyone does anything widely regarded as objectionable. Which doesn’t mean objectionable stuff didn’t happen. But if anyone is under the impression that Haven’s playerbase was largely fine with or involved in that stuff, that would be demonstrably incorrect. I guess it would be analogous to saying anyone still on Twitter is a Nazi paedophile because of Grok. I mean, I’m not on Twitter, I think Twitter sucks and we should boycott it, but a relative of mine is an incredibly unopinionated STEM professor who mostly just uses it to post links to recent studies and congratulate his students on their accomplishments.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: Haven

      @Yam said:

      I thought we were just dunking on the people that coded a system where you lose attractiveness points if you EAT TOO FAST and lose points for fucking someone unattractive but it’s ONLY IF THEY ARE A WOMENS. That’s fuckin’ nuts!! Here we are as a community dunking on it!! WHAT THE HECK

      So like I’m confused, why does all this suck then?

      What if I’m a guy and my kink is subby chicks who wanna be slut-shamed and told to wear make-up and heels or they’re not attractive. And if they’re not attractive I can’t be seen banging them because then I’d be seen as less attractive for having banged an uggo.

      What if my five gfs are into that, who are you to tell us that sucks? Everyone consents! I mean maybe they’re desperate for the validation they derive from this game and the attention of its limited mens, and they know that if they say they don’t like it they’ll be told they aren’t cool and are annoying. And maybe I’m friends with staff, so they worry they’ll be excluded from story if they aren’t part of my inner circle. But so what! Still, they consent!

      And if none of that makes you uncomfortable to think about then so be it, you’re ideologically consistent in also being a free speech absolutist who sees kinkshaming as tantamout to bigotry.

      But if it does make you uncomfortable, then own up to the fact that you do not genuinely think that what two (or in this example six) adults type to each other on the internet to get off is, in fact, totally meaningless and harmless so long as the magic spell of “consent” was cast.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: Haven

      @Pyrephox said:
      But if we’re talking about consenting adults typing words then there are no children involved. If they play necrophilia, there are no corpses involved. Bestiality? No animals involved. Noncon of any type or flavor? No nonconsenting people involved.

      I wouldn’t let anyone near my dog if I had reason to suspect they jerk off to the thought of fucking dogs.

      People may pretend they believe that what people get off to says absolutely nothing of import about their personality structure, and that saying otherwise is tantamount to bigotry; but the range of sneering disgust to morbid fascination in this very thread proves that on some instinctive subconscious level, everyone knows this is false.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)

      @catzilla said:

      I don’t want SA in my games (for the most part) CNC is fine because it’s two consenting adults […] It does pose the slippery slope thing

      I personally want SA to exist in the game’s setting, like I don’t want to pretend we live in some utopia where it just doesn’t happen anymore. I err strongly on the side of not wanting it to happen on-screen. An example I’d be completely fine with is if, for example, our adventuring party is welcomed into a NPC nobleman’s hall. He greets our party, has a feast prepared for us, a quest to offer, and it’s in our best interests to befriend him. Then he introduces us to his teenage bride, young enough to be his daughter, who looks despondent and dissociative.

      If here you’re squicked out and would nope out of the setting immediately that’s fine, ydy, I get why you feel that way.

      Personally, I like this kind of story because to me it makes the setting a lot more real, morally complex, and interesting. Now it raises our stakes on what the characters should do, it gives them an opportunity to try and be heroes if they want to, to investigate the situation, or to choose inaction and commiserate/despair together at the sad state of this setting. But it complicates the simplicity of “yeah let’s take his quest and feast in his hall and he seems like a really great guy”. IMO it does so much more effectively than giving him a more fantastical flaw like, he’s secretly consorting with demons in his basement and plotting to kill the king or whatever. The former presented situation is instantly more real and it tells you about how power works politically here.


      Where I’m actually less comfortable is CNC between players. I go back and forth on whether I’d allow it on a game I made. Sure, in theory, if two adult players consent to their rape fantasy RP then it’s none of my business, but:

      1. If other player characters find out this happened, now it is our business.
      2. I would never want to be in a position as staff to mediate whether someone was telling the truth about a rape scene being OOCly premeditated.
      3. I never want to be unwittingly seated in the proverbial cuck chair of someone’s fetish scenario, especially (and this has literally happened to me) if part of their fantasy involves roping in a white knight to shower them with sympathy and fight some villain for their honour. A villain they asked to do this who is probably their OOC friend or whatever.

      So I lean towards it being far better to just disallow between characters altogether, and that if it is allowed, it needs a very clearly demarcated opt-in consent system that covers not just participants, but also any witnesses/confidants, similar to Silent Heaven’s consent checklist. Like if you wanna consent to having your bodice ripped, fine, but I didn’t consent to listening to your character cry about your OOC kinks.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)

      @Yam said:

      So unfortunately I do think that kind of by nature of having systems in your game that allow SA, it’s going to attract people that want to engage with it, for better or worse.

      @pyrephox already touched on this, but I think that the issue with coded systems is that they basically become an item on a menu.

      Like if I’m playing in a sci-fi setting, maybe I want to be a cool hacker/engineer type. And left to my own devices I’d just RP pretend hacker things like idk, joining my fellow hackers in typing together on the same keyboard and whispering “I’m in …”

      But if there is code that lets me hack a door, specifically, then of course I’m now gonna wanna RP hacking open doors and exploring the grid more than I would’ve thought to do if I were just freeform RPing that hacker life. Now me and all my hacker friends are gonna be busting into everyone’s private offices and bedrooms because it’s an option on the menu, and we said yes please. If you only wanted door-hacking to be possible in theory, but not be a daily occurrence and part of the core gameplay loop, then just leave door-hacking RP undefined, up to player discretion and ST rolls, and players won’t think about it unless the story actually calls for it.

      Haven’s staff has on occasion tried to justify a lot of the sex code stuff as being a fair arbiter of stuff that players would otherwise do anyway, but abusively. For instance, I’m playing Jill. Jack just dumped me. That’s unacceptable so I declare I’m pregnant with Jack’s baby, and if anyone disagrees then they’re trying to murder my baby, and also of course Jack is a bad guy for having knocked me up and then abandoned me. So Haven’s staff says you can’t just troll people with pregnancy drama, code is the arbiter of whether Jill is pregnant or not, and it requires Jack to have been actively involved in that process.

      Obviously there are two problems here which are …

      1. Now that there’s pregnancy code, breeding kink types are more interested in the game and play it for that.
      2. Why tf wouldn’t you just moderate players trolling with obnoxious pregnancy drama or have some kind of policy that it requires consent from both IC parents?

      Extend this to all the rape stuff etc. Sure, “rape exists in this setting”, I’m in theory fine with depending on how it’s handled. But “rape is a labelled, coded, widely advertised item on this menu”, then I don’t think you can be surprised rapists are lining up down the street for your restaurant.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)

      @Tez said:

      @Shygaming said:

      Am I keeping sexual assault as something that can happen in the game? Yes.

      …At the same time I think difficult subject matter can have a place in a dark setting when it is being used as part of the story rather than treated as fetish content.

      I think allowing that kind of material adds more to the setting than removing it entirely. It can create serious consequences. It can create grudges and conflict between characters. It can also make the world feel genuinely unpleasant in places which is appropriate for the sort of setting I am trying to build.

      I actually think you have a point. I just think it will be very very very hard to manage. I’ve tossed this around in my head and with some friends on a number of points, from this to RP about various historical (and current) *isms.

      I think we lose something killing it all. We also kill a few headaches. IDK. It’s about where you put your time and energy.

      Okay now you can fight me too, fam.

      This is generally how I feel about homophobia, racism, and sexism in game settings.

      I don’t have anything against games and their developers who’ve chosen to exclude these themes entirely from their settings. I get why they’re doing it. I share the political motives. If someone was being sexist OOC, I’d ban them. If someone casually dropped the n-word even IC, I’d ban them too, because even if the setting includes racism there are just more tasteful ways to write about it.

      But I think that stories about struggle in an unequal universe can be cathartic, empowering, and add texture to the in-game politics. I also think there are ways to go about RPing these stories that make it clear that you, the player, do not hold or endorse the views being presented. For instance if I’m playing an old-fashioned witch-hunter who fears what he doesn’t understand, and distrusts women with magical power, surely it’s generally clear that I, the player, am not saying women shouldn’t be allowed to have magic? I’m presenting this character as a foil so that you can tell your stories about being a badass witch who scares men who lack her power.

      I don’t want to name names in this instance because I’d be naming people whose games and staffing and reasons I really respect, but I’ve played in a number of spaces over the years where I, as a … [rolls out long list of protected characteristics] felt like there was just something kind of hollow and missing about not being able to write about these experiences, especially where they actually happen to be incredibly relevant to some sort of historical/allegorical setting.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel