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    Kestrel

    @Kestrel

    Profile art: Fade to Light, by Yuumei

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    • RE: MU Peeves Thread

      AI is ruining this hobby. That’s my gripe. It’s ruining my respect for players, staff, my interest in games, my desire to RP. I see old friends whose original writing I’ve always enjoyed, flaunting AI use in a way that makes me feel like they must have never even appreciated their own talent as much as I did. I see promising games lose all promise the second I step on grid and see a sea of AI slop. And I see younger generation, newer players defending it in a way that makes me feel like the future of this hobby is just dead for me, an old fogey whose love of authentic human creativity, warts and all, makes me old-fashioned.

      I hate it. I hate it on a spiritual and existential level.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: MU Peeves Thread

      Had a friend who consistently talked shit about other people in the hobby, and wrote them off over the most minor provocations which were generally misunderstandings.

      I feel like over the years of our friendship, I have accumulated hours of lost energy trying to smooth things over between them and mostly benign enemies they’d misinterpreted, but I did it because I knew that at least some of the time their concerns were founded. and so it made sense to be extra guarded even over times where concerns weren’t founded. And I’d consistently defend them to other people as being a genuinely good person and a phenomenal writer/RPer, just someone who’s a bit touchy and needs some patience/understanding.

      I guess idk why I’d be surprised after all these years to find myself on the other end of the stick, discarded and written off and shit-talked to our mutual friends, but ouch, does the feeling of betrayal really sting.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: MU Peeves Thread

      “Hi guys, I’m a totally new player, I’m just a clueless sweet lil innocent baby, you have never met me before, I don’t know anything. However by pure happenstance, I am unusually well versed in this game’s community drama history, and I carry a massive axe to grind about it. So much so that it has given me a sense of superiority over players I’ve obviously never met before, and enough specific personal grievances to rant obsessively to a non-reciprocal, disengaged audience about it. Any resemblance in visible neuroses to a formerly banned player is purely coincidental. But whoever that identical personality might be, I’m sure they haven’t lied in this exact same manner before. Please don’t shoot the messenger, I’m new here.”

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: Pets!

      My muddy chaos demon

      splat

      posted in No Escape from Reality
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: MU Peeves Thread

      My peeve is me. I want to get back into MU*ing, and have not one, but two games lined up that I want to check out. (Maybe even three if for whatever reason the first two don’t work out!) Both are run by friends whom I respect and admire; whose creative projects I want to support; and whose ability to run good, healthy games that I’d enjoy I have complete faith in.

      It’s just been so long since I’ve fully invested in a MU* that I feel like I’ve practically forgotten how to. I’ve been in creative lulls like this before, and I know that if I just get my foot in the door, roll up a character and get myself into a scene, it’ll all come back in an instant, like I never left the hobby at all. I’m just finding that initial step weirdly harder to surmount than it should be.

      To the multiple friends who might be reading this, and to whom I’ve made empty promises about rolling up to hang out with on a MU* in recent months, I’m sorry. It’s really not you, it’s me. (A phrase I know always feels like bullshit on the receiving end, yet is legit, in this case, true.)

      It's me hi


      Marginally related peeve that I’m sure other alumni of this game can relate to: I hate the extent to which PHSD (Post-HavenRPG Stress Disorder) lives rent-free in my mind. Experiences on that game have made me intensely skittish at the very first sign of red flags on any other game I’ve checked out since, and permanently damaged my ability to put faith in game staff on the whole. It’s not the main reason I’ve been flakey about checking out the two aforementioned MU* run by friends of mine, but it has made me bail a lot quicker than others deem reasonable, on other projects, recently.

      When there are so many good gamerunners out there whose proven track record makes me feel safe to put my complete trust in, it just no longer feels worth it sticking around after the first sign of trouble anywhere else, hoping/expecting things might get better or continuing to make excuses for staffers displaying strong red flags. I did that for years longer than I should’ve on HavenRPG, and I’m not prepared to do that for a day longer anywhere else.

      It also makes me feel much stronger appreciation and gratitude to those gamerunners out there who’ve proven their commitment to their players’ safety time and time again. And to these boards as well, which promote healthy communities & staff practices, and which hold the hobby to a higher standard than I’m regrettably used to seeing.

      There are a number of posters here on these boards who don’t know me at all, whom I’ve never spoken to one on one, whose positive contributions to this community have meant a lot more to me than they could possibly realise.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: Good things in Mushing

      Finding out someone I felt uncomfortable with, but not uncomfortable enough to openly voice my objections to:

      1. Actually has a known history of much more serious permutations of this behaviour on other games
      2. Was already shown the door on my current game without me needing to say anything

      Thank u yes I knew I wasn’t just crazy, and I am so happy to know I’m now playing on a game with safe, healthy, vigilant staff.

      posted in Game Gab
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: MU Peeves Thread

      I totally feel for people saying they don’t page people because they feel anxious etc.

      My quibble is that, while I have no official numbers, I estimate that if I were to take a poll, 90% of this hobby would say they are anxious/autistic/depressed etc.

      I hold it against no one for not making the first move. But I do think that past a certain point of familiarity, if you’ve been playing with someone for a long time, and you care about them, you are morally obligated on some level to force yourself to be the one who reaches out and initiates stuff from time to time. It’s the same with relationships. I’d be sad and insecure if my partner was always dtf when prompted but never initiated. I’d wonder if they actually like me or just like that I’m convenient.

      Labour isn’t easy for anyone but you should still make the effort for people you value. Otherwise they won’t know you value them. You wouldn’t like feeling that way. That’s why you like it when they do the work, right?

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: MU Peeves Thread

      Every few days I wake up feeling creatively inspired and motivated to start something new. Roll up a new concept, join a new game/community, maybe even start my own game. The ideas and plans really turn into these full-fledged beings and worlds just begging to be written. Sometimes I even reach out to friends on Discord and let them know that I’m warming up to dive back into MU*dom or that I want to embark on an ambitious project.

      Unfortunately, then I look at the date and realise I’m already late to meet RL deadlines. In the background, my mysteriously athletic Siberian Husky (seriously, how and when did my pandemic puppy get this buff?) makes her stance clear that if I’m awake enough to be sitting at my laptop, I am definitely awake enough to be giving her the first of 2-3 hours of exercise she’s owed, and no amount of focus will be permitted today until she’s been tired into a coma. And so the muse continuously dies unspent.

      I miss escapism and creative writing.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: MU Peeves Thread

      The inevitable paranoia I constantly feel when friends talk shit about our other friends, and then I can’t help but wonder what they’re probably also saying about me.

      Part RL peeve I suppose, but we are a gossipy hobby.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: MU Peeves Thread

      eggshells 🫤

      Feeling like … I can only scene with you as long as I am very polite and mindful and watch my step and am on my best behaviour. Which is a very reasonable thing to expect of anyone. But also I don’t like feeling tense like that, so if RP always feels like a first date or a job interview, I think I would rather just avoid and hang out with friends who take themselves less seriously and let me fart around.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)

      Calling it wish fulfilment is wild. I had my character attacked at sea, drowned, swallowed by a whale, and kept trapped in an underwater dimension for a week at one point, none of which I wish to experience IRL, nor did I require control over the story, or need to know what was going to happen in order to enjoy it.

      But I went along with it because a friend of mine was running the story, I happen to trust them, and was feeling fatigued enough with the main grid at the time to say “hey fyi if you wanna see this through don’t feel bad about keeping me off-grid for a bit, I could use a break anyway”.

      On a separate occasion, a friend of mine actually killed my character. It turned out neither of us actually intended the outcome, because they’d emoted attacking, I’d mistakenly interpreted their intention as killing the character (which would’ve been a rational consequence for the action I’d taken), so I emoted dying, they OOCly went “wtf I didn’t mean it like that”, I responded “lol oops”, they said, “hang on I can contrive a way to resurrect you” and I said “nah dw I’m good, this is a good ending for the character”.

      The wish being fulfilled here is for a good story that everyone involved enjoys. Everyone should wish for that, it’s the point of storytelling! It’s actually super not necessary, even in a story where the outcome isn’t predetermined, and conflict between characters is permitted without prior consent, to have any party involved be OOCly miserable.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)

      @Shygaming said:

      @Kestrel said:

      @Shygaming said:

      And I’ve seen that dynamic poison games before. I genuinely cannot count how many times I’ve seen some supposedly awful villain doing horrific things to another character while everyone involved OOC is having a wonderful time and the “victim” is actively helping arrange it. It stops functioning as an unpleasant consequence of living in a horrible setting and starts functioning as content being provided for people who want that content.

      This has to be one of the most buckwild paragraphs I’ve ever read on any RP forum. I’m actually more weirded out by this than the opinions on SA stuff which is very much not my kink.

      Why do you want people’s experience of a hobby to be bad?

      Seek help.

      A story can only really work when characters are allowed to react to things in believable ways.

      I don’t want the player’s experience to be bad. I want characters to sometimes have bad experiences because conflict and adversity are what make stories interesting.

      Can you imagine how compelling The Handmaid’s Tale would have been if all the women were actually into what was happening to them? If everyone in Gilead had enthusiastically consented then you have not made the story safer. You have removed the entire point of the story.

      It’s called roleplay. If you can’t convincingly portray negative emotions without feeling them in real life, you’re not roleplaying or storytelling, you’re engaging in some sort of glorified chat server where everyone just bullies each other.

      Margaret Atwood didn’t need to be physically held down in order to convincingly write characters experiencing the same. Neither do her readers, in order to find the story empathic and emotionally fulfilling.

      But I picked up The Handmaid’s Tale because I wanted to read it. Her books are content for people who want that content. That’s how all media/entertainment works. I watch a horror movie because I think I’ll enjoy watching a horror movie, I read a book because I think I’ll enjoy reading a book, I emote my character loitering outside a maximum security facility because the risk of being caught and interrogated sounds fun to me.

      I play antagonists all the time. The scenario where everyone is having fun and enjoying the story, even as their characters are screaming, is absolutely the ideal. That’s my dopamine hit, knowing how much fun everyone is having and that I could facilitate that. What enjoyment do you derive out of knowing your fellow players aren’t having fun?

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)

      @Shygaming said:

      And I’ve seen that dynamic poison games before. I genuinely cannot count how many times I’ve seen some supposedly awful villain doing horrific things to another character while everyone involved OOC is having a wonderful time and the “victim” is actively helping arrange it. It stops functioning as an unpleasant consequence of living in a horrible setting and starts functioning as content being provided for people who want that content.

      This has to be one of the most buckwild paragraphs I’ve ever read on any RP forum. I’m actually more weirded out by this than the opinions on SA stuff which is very much not my kink.

      Why do you want people’s experience of a hobby to be bad?

      Seek help.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)

      @Pavel said:

      @Tez said:

      There’s something to be said about the fact that we are more comfy with killing someone.

      I don’t have the time to do an in-depth literature review on the subject, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there is something of an evolutionary bias (eta: either social evolution or genetic) that influenced our sociological development. I can, for instance, easily imagine a scenario in which my killing someone is the correct moral, ethical, and legal choice.

      Sorry, you’ve just tripped one of my special interests.

      The Evolution of Desire, by David M. Buss, Chapter 6: Staying Together

      Free to listen to as an audiobook with Spotify Premium

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)

      @hellfrog said:

      So the issue is other peoples’ cavalier attitudes towards their own self-examination of their motives and behavior? Internally?? Because previously she stated she wanted it in the setting, but not - involving pcs, I guess? Which begs a lot of questions, and assumptions, and questions about the assumptions.

      And maybe a little alarm at the assumption one can diagnose a stranger by a behavior that may be an indicator of a possible problem or may be completely harmless.

      What questions and assumptions does it beg, exactly? I think I could not have been more specific in the point I made and example I gave, so I can’t infer the gish gallop response was in good faith.

      If a person derives enjoyment from writing about children engaged in graphic sexual acts, I would assume that person is a paedophile, which is not harmless.

      If a person enjoys collecting members of the opposite sex, pitting them against each other in competition for their affection, and exercising control over them, I would assume that person is an abuser who does not see members of the opposite sex as complete human beings. And by the way, “it’s just my kink bro, plus they all literally consented, it was an empowering women’s movement, they asked to be my slaves!” is exactly the excuse NXIVM cult-leader Keith Raniere gave for this behaviour.

      There is an obvious difference between an example I made of implied NPC abuse that takes place off-screen, and is presented for PCs to engage in the moral consequences of, versus a repeated/back-and-forth on-screen graphic sexual scene engaged in for personal gratification, with a real person’s sexual participation as a prop. Not knowing for a fact that it’s being done for immediate sexual gratification is irrelevant; firstly, because this is frequently enough the case to make a safe assumption about, and secondly because in cases of sexual abuse, it actually isn’t about climactic gratification, but about power.

      I realise that a lot of posters, and especially Gen X, are traumatised from this history of slut-shaming in the hobby/IRL, but to act like the opposite extreme of unbridled sexual permissiveness doesn’t also do immense harm is blind at best, and an attitude that enables abusers at worst. Which is why a lot of puriteen Gen Z these days who grew up on Andrew Tate, Bonnie Blue, and readily available BDSM porn everywhere they look, reject that attitude so strongly. I’m somewhere in the middle both ideologically and generationally. My stance is that overcorrecting towards either extreme does harm. There should be limits, and one that was put forward earlier in this cross-thread debate (tag removed) is definitely a good start. The consequence I’m advocating for is that game staff should not ignore the potential for harm, nor treat “consent” as a magic word that automatically absolves anyone of harm inflicted.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)

      @Tez said:

      I was talking to a buddy today and I think one of the reasons I am uncomfortable with what can feel like the sanitization of themes is because there is so much external pressure in the real world that threatens to sanitize […] Sexual content in general, when you look at payment processors.

      There is generally a cultural pushback whenever things head too far in a certain direction. I personally think the sexual liberation movement peaked with Gen X & Millennials.

      I don’t trust anyone who believes in any kind of extremes. All of life is nuanced and shades of grey. You can have too much of a good thing. All or nothing radical thinking is something I consign to my 20s. You can have too many cats. You can add too much garlic. You can have too much sexual liberation.

      My generation grew up with Sex and the City, American Pie, and widely available internet porn which, I recall on first inquisitive viewing, being genuinely baffled to even try and comprehend how the depicted acts were physically possible. And in all candour, I don’t think my life has been terribly enriched by gaining this knowledge.

      We grew up with Cool Girl before it had the name Cool Girl; this idea that a person (but especially a woman) is invalid unless they perform extreme sexuality without limits.

      Within this framework, a person is not a person, they are parts. They do not have wants and needs, they have status to earn and prove. I do not see that as “sex positive”, I see that as a broken and fragmented understanding of sexual identity as a kind of fashion accessory, much like stiletto heels, displayed even if it hurts, and existing separate from the actual person.

      I am strongly of the opinion that these dynamics play out in online games and communities as well. I’ve seen them play out on Haven, IRE games (the latter of which I played mostly while underage, and were not marketed as “sex games”), and even the chillest and most expertly run MUSHes I’ve played.

      I think it is blind to ignore the ways in which these experiences can cause real harm to players, both through other players and their own choosing. A couple examples:

      1. A player writes a fantasy in which his adult character engages in incest with an underage character. This is repeatedly training his mind to associate sexual desire and arousal with the fantasy of an underage family member. It’s not his fault if these fantasies already lay dormant, but it is his fault and his choice to reinforce and further explore them. I cannot be convinced that this is unlikely to cause future harm to his ability to maintain an appropriate view and relationship with his own underage family members.
      2. A game has a skewed gender ratio, more female than male. Because of this, male characters are in high demand by partner-seeking heterosexual female characters. This gives the players of male characters an advantage to pit female characters against each other in competition. It encourages the players of female characters to seek to prove themselves sexually above other female characters, to settle for unequal nonmonogamous arrangements, to ignore mistreatment by the players of male characters, to alter their characters and storytelling for male approval, and to blur IC/OOC boundaries in order to retain their attention. I cannot be convinced that a male-led harem on this game can truly be assumed to be fully consensual, on the part of potentially lonely players using this game as a source of self-esteem and validation, or that it fosters healthy dynamics. I don’t think it’s good for men to ride this kind of ego trip, and I don’t think it’s good for women to vicariously experience this erosion of self through a sexual fantasy that isn’t even really her own.

      None of this is to say that sexual RP should be disallowed or even discouraged. I engage, have engaged, and will continue to engage in graphic sexual RP.

      But I personally try to be incredibly mindful of the ways that sexual RP can cause harm both to myself and others. I try to notice unhealthy dynamics, some of which spark concern, others anger and moral disgust, because I’ve been on the receiving end and know firsthand the profound degree of psychic damage they can cause. It would absolutely kill me, were I staffing any kind of game, to imagine that my action or inaction had caused that kind of harm to someone else.

      I’m not just worried about children. The players of online roleplaying games tend to originate from a baseline crop that, IME, is on average more neurodivergent, less mentally and emotionally stable, less romantically/sexually successful in real life, etc., and that creates a fertile ground for exploitation and abuse. I’m not at all comfortable with anyone who washes their hands of having to ever think about that by simply saying, “they’re adults”. I’m especially concerned when game staff say stuff like this, because it makes me wonder how they handle parasocial attachment from their players, when in a position of power.

      And again, this is not to say that SA RP specifically should be allowed or disallowed, etc. But it is to say that I very strongly reject any kind of blasé attitude that it is always acceptable so long as it occurs between adults and is technically consensual. Nothing is, IMO.

      Consent is a lot more complex than many people here are giving credit. Consent is not a moral blank cheque or a get out of jail free card. If you harmed someone, you harmed them. You can also harm yourself. It’s not magically fine regardless of surrounding context just because they nodded and said, “harder daddy” while clearly bleeding.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)

      🤔

      Maybe the safest and most sensible way to enjoy story-rich CNC RP is to just do it on a game that forbids it, but behind a closed door, in a private room that can’t be spied on, and contrive a reason to never tell anybody IC or OOC.

      If I never have to hear about it, I’m not gonna kinkshame it.

      This applies to about 99% of things that annoy me on MU* tbh.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: Haven

      Purely for clarification, paedophilia RP was not against Haven’s rules, as set out by Tyr and largely enforced by Discordance.

      Daed, as story staff, largely did not have the authority to enforce rules, nor to act against players who irked his personal distaste. His job was just orchestrating the game’s overarching metaplot.

      When he PK’d a character played by Tykune, whom he caught engaging in paedophilia RP, that was actually not within the technical scope of what he ought to have been doing as story staff. In the most technical sense, arguably that was an abuse of staff power. It’s just that literally no one was mad about it, except I guess for Tykune, who still crashes out about it on Reddit every so often. Also about being denied the right to play an anthropomorphic bunny rabbit by Legend of the Jedi’s staff, but that’s a whole other story.

      I think I probably hold some sort of record for most forum-banned/channel-muted Haven player so it probably goes without saying that I don’t give a flying fuck about whether Daed was allowed to do that or not per Haven’s largely unwritten, vibes-based rules, and I’m not saying any of this to shame him, because I don’t think he was in the wrong.

      But it’s probably a good example of how Wild West Haven’s community management style is, with no actual bannings or rules, just the unspoken expectations that players/staff will bully each other in a prolonged war of attrition if anyone does anything widely regarded as objectionable. Which doesn’t mean objectionable stuff didn’t happen. But if anyone is under the impression that Haven’s playerbase was largely fine with or involved in that stuff, that would be demonstrably incorrect. I guess it would be analogous to saying anyone still on Twitter is a Nazi paedophile because of Grok. I mean, I’m not on Twitter, I think Twitter sucks and we should boycott it, but a relative of mine is an incredibly unopinionated STEM professor who mostly just uses it to post links to recent studies and congratulate his students on their accomplishments.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: Haven

      @Yam said:

      I thought we were just dunking on the people that coded a system where you lose attractiveness points if you EAT TOO FAST and lose points for fucking someone unattractive but it’s ONLY IF THEY ARE A WOMENS. That’s fuckin’ nuts!! Here we are as a community dunking on it!! WHAT THE HECK

      So like I’m confused, why does all this suck then?

      What if I’m a guy and my kink is subby chicks who wanna be slut-shamed and told to wear make-up and heels or they’re not attractive. And if they’re not attractive I can’t be seen banging them because then I’d be seen as less attractive for having banged an uggo.

      What if my five gfs are into that, who are you to tell us that sucks? Everyone consents! I mean maybe they’re desperate for the validation they derive from this game and the attention of its limited mens, and they know that if they say they don’t like it they’ll be told they aren’t cool and are annoying. And maybe I’m friends with staff, so they worry they’ll be excluded from story if they aren’t part of my inner circle. But so what! Still, they consent!

      And if none of that makes you uncomfortable to think about then so be it, you’re ideologically consistent in also being a free speech absolutist who sees kinkshaming as tantamout to bigotry.

      But if it does make you uncomfortable, then own up to the fact that you do not genuinely think that what two (or in this example six) adults type to each other on the internet to get off is, in fact, totally meaningless and harmless so long as the magic spell of “consent” was cast.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel
    • RE: Haven

      @Pyrephox said:
      But if we’re talking about consenting adults typing words then there are no children involved. If they play necrophilia, there are no corpses involved. Bestiality? No animals involved. Noncon of any type or flavor? No nonconsenting people involved.

      I wouldn’t let anyone near my dog if I had reason to suspect they jerk off to the thought of fucking dogs.

      People may pretend they believe that what people get off to says absolutely nothing of import about their personality structure, and that saying otherwise is tantamount to bigotry; but the range of sneering disgust to morbid fascination in this very thread proves that on some instinctive subconscious level, everyone knows this is false.

      posted in Rough and Rowdy
      KestrelK
      Kestrel