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On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof
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@RightMeow I can understand this instinct but I am going to second the takes of others. To me, there is a difference between, “Oh, no. I’m so sorry. I didn’t intend to make anyone uncomfortable.” And “So-and-so misinterpreted what I meant. It was just a joke!” This first is what I expect of a generally considerate person. The second is a red flag.
Also, as a second thing that isn’t about you but just a thing that I personally see as a red flag when I am handling a complaint. If you have been the subject of a complaint and either know who the other party is or find out somehow (I don’t name names when speaking to people who have been complained about), DO NOT then approach them afterward to ‘clear the air’. It does not come across the way that most good intentioned people think it does and, to staff like me, that is a big old red flag. If you are the subject of a complaint, don’t approach who you know or think might have lodged a complaint. If they want to talk to you about it, they will approach, but they might want distance afterward, even if you didn’t meant to make them uncomfortable. Just because you step on someone’s foot accidentally doesn’t mean that it doesn’t hurt.
lol lmao
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@Herja i have seen people say something like 'oh no, do you think i could/should apologize to them?" and that to me always seemed earnest and well intentioned. Even though I always said ‘how about don’t, just be aware of this going forward’.
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@hellfrog Yeah, same. I usually say something along the same lines because most of the people in this hobby won’t report anything until they have reached a high level of discomfort. If they have reached that point, I want to give them space to decide if they even want an apology or just left alone. I also think that a rush to approach and apologize is centering the feelings of the person reported who needs to do something with their guilty feelings not the person who has made a report, which could just made that discomfort worse.
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To throw out there for folks concerned regarding red flags, red flags are NOT condemnation, nor are they proof positive. They’re going to make a good staffer pay more attention to some parts of your behavior, but please don’t be concerned that any of your natural reactions are, in isolation, going to result in the assumption of guilt.
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I mean. I’m human. I’ve had people take things the wrong way and I have taken things the wrong way. I’ve had a ‘that didn’t hit how you thought’ talk before. I have NEVER approached the other person should I find out who it is. I usually try to avoid and let them come to me (if they do). I normally ask the staff member to convey my apologies and leave it there. Which, maybe also is bad.
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The last time a staff had to talk to me it was a third person reporting for someone else. I felt awful and reached out to apologize and the person in question didn’t have a problem with the interaction (or, since I can’t read their mind, they just didn’t want to talk about it and saying nothing was wrong was the easiest way to get the conversation to). It was an IC interaction too, other than “you guys rping?” And “thanks for letting me join” there wasn’t any ooc.
So I guess it doesn’t quite fit, but this made me remember it so I did.
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@Roadspike said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
@Apos Agreed. Any time that someone asks me to define a term that should be common knowledge, I assume that they are just looking for clearly delineated rules that they can push the envelope on and then claim that they’re not breaking the actual rules.
Everyone should know what “creepy” means, and if they can’t avoid it, then they can’t play on any game I run.
They could also just be neuroatypical. Easiest way to tell the difference is neuroatypical players will usually not be deliberately pushing boundaries or engage in predatory behavior but they can often annoy other players.
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@JKER said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
neuroatypical
Neurodivergent is the more usually accepted word. Neuroatypical has connotations.
ETA: Neurodiverse is also acceptable.
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@JKER I mean, I’m neurodivergent. I know that I’m not every neurodivergent person (clearly), but I also know that if someone tells me that I’m acting creepy, I don’t ask them to define creepy. I may ask for more details on my behavior, but I don’t ask them to define the term.
And I have dealt with enough creepy people as a staffer to know that nothing good ever comes of someone asking for more details on a rule that should be self-explanatory (like “don’t be creepy”). People who want more specificity in general purpose rules like “don’t be creepy” or “don’t be an asshole” are usually looking for something hard and fast to say “I didn’t break that rule” when they were pushing the envelope or outright breaking the broader rule but the more specific one doesn’t cover every possible case.
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@JKER said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
@Roadspike said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
@Apos Agreed. Any time that someone asks me to define a term that should be common knowledge, I assume that they are just looking for clearly delineated rules that they can push the envelope on and then claim that they’re not breaking the actual rules.
Everyone should know what “creepy” means, and if they can’t avoid it, then they can’t play on any game I run.
They could also just be neuroatypical. Easiest way to tell the difference is neuroatypical players will usually not be deliberately pushing boundaries or engage in predatory behavior but they can often annoy other players.
Annoying other players is one thing. Participating in harassment is something else. “Creepy” isn’t about “neuroatypical” behavior being annoying, it’s about being creepy. Those two things are NOT the same, and being neurodivergent does not make you creepy. Violating boundaries, being a sex pest, refusing to take ‘no’ for an answer – none of these behaviors are related to being neurodivergent.
the entity previously known as Sunny
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@IoleRae Right! Being annoying also does not make you creepy.
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@hellfrog said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
Being annoying also does not make you creepy.
Until it becomes a pattern, of course. So all you far-too-nice folks out there who waver between “is this creepy or are they just annoying me…” Report it.
ETA: Even if it is just someone being annoying, if you’re uncomfortable telling them for any reason, contact staff. There’s no shame in reaching for a figure of trust and authority when you feel even a tiny inkling of a need.
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I feel the same way about neurodivergency that I do about all disabilities; if a person’s disability is so bad that they are incapable of harming or harassing people because of it, this isn’t the hobby for them.
It sucks, and I do believe strongly in reasonable accommodations being made to allow people to participate, but if your social skills are so bad that you literally can’t help being harmful to other human beings, you need external support before you can participate.
I have plenty of my own issues, and when those issues pop up and I do bad things, I don’t expect to go “but my issues!” – other people have as much right to safety as I do to have issues.
My right to punch ends where your nose begins. If you can’t go in the ball pit without biting other kids, sorry, you don’t get to go into the ball pit when other kids are there. They don’t deserve to get bit.
the entity previously known as Sunny
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@IoleRae said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
I feel the same way about neurodivergency that I do about all disabilities; if a person’s disability is so bad that they are incapable of harming or harassing people because of it, this isn’t the hobby for them.
Strongly agree. Neurodivergence, mental malady, or whatever it is, is a reason but not an excuse. In that, it’s an explanation, but not something that excuses one from consequences.
One is still responsible for their behaviour and ensuring that behaviour fits within the established norms of a group if one wants to be a member of said group.
ETA: This is coming from a place of deep, personal, lived experience with a rather debilitating mental malady which has, on occasion, ruined relationships, caused deep fractures in groups, and horridly impacted my ability to function in the world on many an occasion.
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@Roadspike said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
@JKER I mean, I’m neurodivergent. I know that I’m not every neurodivergent person (clearly), but I also know that if someone tells me that I’m acting creepy, I don’t ask them to define creepy. I may ask for more details on my behavior, but I don’t ask them to define the term.
The problem I’ve always had with the term “creepy” is that I find in practice it actually means “I don’t enjoy that in this context with that person.” which makes it effectively impossible for me to figure out what any one person finds to be creepy since not only do different people find different things creepy, they find the same behavior to be creepy/non creepy based on who did it and when they did it. So “Don’t be creepy” ends up being a rather unhelpful guide.
So for text based RP, instead of trying to figure out how to “not be creepy.” I usually try to heuristically determine what works for any given player by paying attention to how quickly and verbosely they react to a pose. On average I find that if a player enjoys RPng about something, they’ll engage with it enthusiastically so by following that flow you’ll have reasonable scenes most of the time. If someone doesn’t seem to want to engage in something, it makes no sense to try to push it on them. Also I’ve never been into getting personal OOCly, it seems to be a great generator of both trouble and drama.
@IoleRae said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
Annoying other players is one thing. Participating in harassment is something else. “Creepy” isn’t about “neuroatypical” behavior being annoying, it’s about being creepy. Those two things are NOT the same, and being neurodivergent does not make you creepy.
I see neurodivergent people being called creepy all the time. Far from everyone has the same idea of what is creepy.
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@JKER said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
I see neurodivergent people being called creepy all the time. Far from everyone has the same idea of what is creepy.
Nope. This is exactly the sort of nitpicking I mean. If you can’t not harass people without a specific list of exactly what behaviors are off limits, you have no business being there until you’ve received more external support. Game staff are not case managers or therapists.
We’re not talking weird and annoying when staff is coming to you and going “knock off the creeper shit”. They are not mixing up annoying and creeper; at the point game staff is coming to you about being creepy, “define creepy for me” is inappropriate.
You’ve already done the harm at that point, and if you really can’t figure it out without an itemized list, GET OUT OF THE BALL PIT until you can avoid biting people on your own.
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@IoleRae
The point here is that “Don’t be creepy” isn’t actionable advice. Sexpests don’t care and the kind of people who are creepy by accident still won’t know how to not be creepy.So from a purely practical standpoint, I suggest you either just ban them off the bat or you offer actionable advise which the sexpests will still ignore but the people who did it by accident will actually try to follow and the game be ever so slightly better.
That said, you’re free to remain as bigoted against neurodivergent players as you like.
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@JKER said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
That said, you’re free to remain as bigoted against neurodivergent players as you like.
Oh look, a crybully.
There’s nothing bigoted about my stance. It’s likely that a really significant number of mushers are neurodivergent. I certainly am. Refusing to tolerate harassment/abuse isn’t bigoted. “People should put up with being abused” isn’t a reasonable accomodation for any disability.
Being neurodivergent doesn’t mean you get to harass people. Your issues are your responsibility. Mine are mine. Staff’s job is to keep them from impacting other people. If you can’t avoid impacting people without an itemized list, then you don’t get to be in the environment.
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@JKER said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
That said, you’re free to remain as bigoted against neurodivergent players as you like.
As you are clearly free to remain as bigoted against everyone who disagrees with you even a little bit as you like.
(see how making sweeping generalizations and jumping to extremes is dumb? don’t do it)
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@JKER said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
@IoleRae
The point here is that “Don’t be creepy” isn’t actionable advice. Sexpests don’t care and the kind of people who are creepy by accident still won’t know how to not be creepy.It also would be pretty unusual for staff to bring someone in just to say “don’t be creepy” and offer nothing else about the behavior. Like, that’s just shorthand we’re using right now. But there’s a difference between general feedback about bad behavior and people who ask for detailed, itemized lists of player boundaries.
