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On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof
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@JKER said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
@Roadspike said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
@Apos Agreed. Any time that someone asks me to define a term that should be common knowledge, I assume that they are just looking for clearly delineated rules that they can push the envelope on and then claim that they’re not breaking the actual rules.
Everyone should know what “creepy” means, and if they can’t avoid it, then they can’t play on any game I run.
They could also just be neuroatypical. Easiest way to tell the difference is neuroatypical players will usually not be deliberately pushing boundaries or engage in predatory behavior but they can often annoy other players.
Annoying other players is one thing. Participating in harassment is something else. “Creepy” isn’t about “neuroatypical” behavior being annoying, it’s about being creepy. Those two things are NOT the same, and being neurodivergent does not make you creepy. Violating boundaries, being a sex pest, refusing to take ‘no’ for an answer – none of these behaviors are related to being neurodivergent.
the entity previously known as Sunny
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@IoleRae Right! Being annoying also does not make you creepy.
fr fr
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@hellfrog said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
Being annoying also does not make you creepy.
Until it becomes a pattern, of course. So all you far-too-nice folks out there who waver between “is this creepy or are they just annoying me…” Report it.
ETA: Even if it is just someone being annoying, if you’re uncomfortable telling them for any reason, contact staff. There’s no shame in reaching for a figure of trust and authority when you feel even a tiny inkling of a need.
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I feel the same way about neurodivergency that I do about all disabilities; if a person’s disability is so bad that they are incapable of harming or harassing people because of it, this isn’t the hobby for them.
It sucks, and I do believe strongly in reasonable accommodations being made to allow people to participate, but if your social skills are so bad that you literally can’t help being harmful to other human beings, you need external support before you can participate.
I have plenty of my own issues, and when those issues pop up and I do bad things, I don’t expect to go “but my issues!” – other people have as much right to safety as I do to have issues.
My right to punch ends where your nose begins. If you can’t go in the ball pit without biting other kids, sorry, you don’t get to go into the ball pit when other kids are there. They don’t deserve to get bit.
the entity previously known as Sunny
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@IoleRae said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
I feel the same way about neurodivergency that I do about all disabilities; if a person’s disability is so bad that they are incapable of harming or harassing people because of it, this isn’t the hobby for them.
Strongly agree. Neurodivergence, mental malady, or whatever it is, is a reason but not an excuse. In that, it’s an explanation, but not something that excuses one from consequences.
One is still responsible for their behaviour and ensuring that behaviour fits within the established norms of a group if one wants to be a member of said group.
ETA: This is coming from a place of deep, personal, lived experience with a rather debilitating mental malady which has, on occasion, ruined relationships, caused deep fractures in groups, and horridly impacted my ability to function in the world on many an occasion.
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@Roadspike said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
@JKER I mean, I’m neurodivergent. I know that I’m not every neurodivergent person (clearly), but I also know that if someone tells me that I’m acting creepy, I don’t ask them to define creepy. I may ask for more details on my behavior, but I don’t ask them to define the term.
The problem I’ve always had with the term “creepy” is that I find in practice it actually means “I don’t enjoy that in this context with that person.” which makes it effectively impossible for me to figure out what any one person finds to be creepy since not only do different people find different things creepy, they find the same behavior to be creepy/non creepy based on who did it and when they did it. So “Don’t be creepy” ends up being a rather unhelpful guide.
So for text based RP, instead of trying to figure out how to “not be creepy.” I usually try to heuristically determine what works for any given player by paying attention to how quickly and verbosely they react to a pose. On average I find that if a player enjoys RPng about something, they’ll engage with it enthusiastically so by following that flow you’ll have reasonable scenes most of the time. If someone doesn’t seem to want to engage in something, it makes no sense to try to push it on them. Also I’ve never been into getting personal OOCly, it seems to be a great generator of both trouble and drama.
@IoleRae said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
Annoying other players is one thing. Participating in harassment is something else. “Creepy” isn’t about “neuroatypical” behavior being annoying, it’s about being creepy. Those two things are NOT the same, and being neurodivergent does not make you creepy.
I see neurodivergent people being called creepy all the time. Far from everyone has the same idea of what is creepy.
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@JKER said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
I see neurodivergent people being called creepy all the time. Far from everyone has the same idea of what is creepy.
Nope. This is exactly the sort of nitpicking I mean. If you can’t not harass people without a specific list of exactly what behaviors are off limits, you have no business being there until you’ve received more external support. Game staff are not case managers or therapists.
We’re not talking weird and annoying when staff is coming to you and going “knock off the creeper shit”. They are not mixing up annoying and creeper; at the point game staff is coming to you about being creepy, “define creepy for me” is inappropriate.
You’ve already done the harm at that point, and if you really can’t figure it out without an itemized list, GET OUT OF THE BALL PIT until you can avoid biting people on your own.
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@IoleRae
The point here is that “Don’t be creepy” isn’t actionable advice. Sexpests don’t care and the kind of people who are creepy by accident still won’t know how to not be creepy.So from a purely practical standpoint, I suggest you either just ban them off the bat or you offer actionable advise which the sexpests will still ignore but the people who did it by accident will actually try to follow and the game be ever so slightly better.
That said, you’re free to remain as bigoted against neurodivergent players as you like.
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@JKER said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
That said, you’re free to remain as bigoted against neurodivergent players as you like.
Oh look, a crybully.
There’s nothing bigoted about my stance. It’s likely that a really significant number of mushers are neurodivergent. I certainly am. Refusing to tolerate harassment/abuse isn’t bigoted. “People should put up with being abused” isn’t a reasonable accomodation for any disability.
Being neurodivergent doesn’t mean you get to harass people. Your issues are your responsibility. Mine are mine. Staff’s job is to keep them from impacting other people. If you can’t avoid impacting people without an itemized list, then you don’t get to be in the environment.
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@JKER said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
That said, you’re free to remain as bigoted against neurodivergent players as you like.
As you are clearly free to remain as bigoted against everyone who disagrees with you even a little bit as you like.
(see how making sweeping generalizations and jumping to extremes is dumb? don’t do it)
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@JKER said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
@IoleRae
The point here is that “Don’t be creepy” isn’t actionable advice. Sexpests don’t care and the kind of people who are creepy by accident still won’t know how to not be creepy.It also would be pretty unusual for staff to bring someone in just to say “don’t be creepy” and offer nothing else about the behavior. Like, that’s just shorthand we’re using right now. But there’s a difference between general feedback about bad behavior and people who ask for detailed, itemized lists of player boundaries.
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@JKER said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
That said, you’re free to remain as bigoted against neurodivergent players as you like.
Don’t think you’re speaking for the entire neurodivergent community on this one.
I mean, seriously. How hard is this part so difficult to understand.
@IoleRae said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
If you can’t not harass people without a specific list of exactly what behaviors are off limits, you have no business being there until you’ve received more external support. Game staff are not case managers or therapists.
She even bolded it. That’s the whole, entire point, And your conclusion that you’ve drawn from that is, “Well, you’re just all bigots.” Really?
Really?
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@Testament said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
She even bolded it. That’s the whole, entire point, And your conclusion that you’ve drawn from that is, “Well, you’re just all bigots.” Really?
Really?
No, you’re not all bigots. loleRae is a bigot.
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@JKER said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
@Testament said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
She even bolded it. That’s the whole, entire point, And your conclusion that you’ve drawn from that is, “Well, you’re just all bigots.” Really?
Really?
No, you’re not all bigots. loleRae is a bigot.
Refusing to tolerate harassment/abuse is not bigoted.
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@JKER said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
The problem I’ve always had with the term “creepy” is that I find in practice it actually means “I don’t enjoy that in this context with that person.” which makes it effectively impossible for me to figure out what any one person finds to be creepy since not only do different people find different things creepy, they find the same behavior to be creepy/non creepy based on who did it and when they did it.
Lol. The “context” you’re referring to is consent. The only time I have ever found a line between a behavior that people enjoy with one person and find objectionable from another is when it’s being engaged in without permission and without a relationship of trust. If you don’t understand that, yeah, not that surprising that you’re struggling.
This really isn’t that complicated, from one neurodivergent to another.
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@JKER said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
That said, you’re free to remain as bigoted against neurodivergent players as you like.
Hi. I’m GF. I have brain problems. I chose those last four words very deliberately, because the brain problems I mentioned? I have them. They’re mine. They belong to me. They’re not anyone else’s responsibility. If they contribute to me being an asshole, then that is my responsibility too. Others may choose to offer me correction (several people in this forum have done so at various points), and I am grateful for their emotional labor when they do it, but they don’t owe it to me.
Nor do my brain problems absolve me of the responsibility I hold for the outcomes of my actions, because whether or not I intended to be disruptive doesn’t retroactively make the things I did not disruptive, and it won’t prevent any future actions I take from being disruptive. Only not being disruptive will cause my actions to not be disruptive.
I would personally feel deeply insulted, and more than a little hurt, if I found out people were making allowances for me due to my brain problems, because that would infantilize me. It would imply or even outright say that they have no faith I am a competent adult capable of learning from my mistakes and making appropriate changes. I’d rather be kicked from a game than treated like that, because at least when I get kicked off I have the cold comfort of knowing I’m not doing any more harm to people I don’t wish harm upon. I can’t imagine feeling that IoleRae’s hypothetical staff policy toward me is a form of bigotry.
But then, I can’t imagine feeling anything about IoleRae is bigoted toward neurodivergent people because we talk sometimes and she just seems like a super chill person who thinks her positions through and always keeps an eye on the moral and ethical implications of her actions; so maybe that disqualifies my opinion from mattering.
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Creepy, in this thread, has been used as a shorthand for ‘violating other players’ boundaries either in an egregious single event or by persistent pressure.’ Do you find that to be an actionable definition?
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I can’t determine creepy for anyone else, but I sure can for me.
Annoying: Behavior I would put up with if it is done occasionally. Typically leads down the road towards anger.
Creepy: Behavior that makes me feel dirty and uncomfortable. Typically leads down a road of shame and depression.
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@JKER I hear and recognize your experience. And I know and understand that some people who do not read social cues well (it’s particularly hard in text) or do not understand what’s socially acceptable have problems understanding when they’re being creepy.
I also agree with @IoleRae that folks who don’t know what “creepy” is need to do some research on their own to see what it means. It’s not up to Staff to define – if someone is creeped out, they can and should ask the person to stop doing what they’re doing; if they keep running into those boundaries, the victim can and should tell the offender to stop contacting them entirely.
If they don’t feel comfortable telling the offender that they’re uncomfortable, they should tell Staff. Then Staff can tell the offender “hey, you recently jumped straight from comforting RP to trying for TS despite the other character giving no indications they wanted that RP, that’s creepy – moderate your behavior or leave the game.” But Staff should never have to build a list of behaviors like “jumping straight from comforting RP to trying for TS despite the other character giving no indications they want that RP” into their policies. Doing that is just asking for some sexpest or creeper to point at the list and say, “I went to drinking tea between comforting RP and trying for TS, so you can’t ban me!”
@JKER said in On the utility of Logs, Receipts, and Proof:
No, you’re not all bigots. loleRae is a bigot.
What you’re bumping up against is the Paradox of Intolerance – what @IoleRae said (in different words, of course) is that tolerance and safety sometimes requires that you be intolerant of behaviors that threaten the safety and tolerant nature of the space. Saying “that action being taken by that neurodivergent person is unacceptable” is not being a bigot toward neurodivergent people.
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Everyone with brain problems is welcome to play. However, your brain problems do not act as an excuse to permit you to cause discomfort to others.
