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    Liberation Drama!?

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Rough and Rowdy
    28 Posts 14 Posters 1.3k Views
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    • GashlycrumbG
      Gashlycrumb @Taika
      last edited by Gashlycrumb

      @Taika It seems like Sun has made effort not to tell the game what’s happening, so maybe you want to edit that? I certainly hope people don’t bring it up with her, given that.

      And, yeah. Whatever the reason, jobs don’t get vetted for timeline.

      "This is Liberty Hall; you can spit on the mat and call the cat a bastard!"
      – A. Bertram Chandler

      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
      • EvilgraysonE
        Evilgrayson
        last edited by

        I mean I understand the complaint and where it’s coming from, but I’ve been the one left holding the bag for someone else’s RL emergency, and it sucks.

        Whatever you do is wrong. Whatever you say is wrong. You aren’t enough and you can’t be enough, because what’s needed is the one whose bag this is and you’re just hanging onto it right now.

        And it’s their RL, so you either turn into someone unreasonable, or you accept that RL comes first and this sucks.

        And in the meantime, when someone puts a post up like this, it’s just pure demoralisation. There’s only one person who can answer these questions and - for whatever reason - they aren’t in the conversation right now.

        Sure, the post may be accurate and it may be on point and it may be whatever, but it doesn’t help. And it won’t help. And it can’t help. All it can do is get people talking around in circles about their grievances, while also making the people who’ve been left with the bag feel like shit.

        Congrats, I guess?

        PavelP 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 9
        • PavelP
          Pavel @Evilgrayson
          last edited by

          @Evilgrayson said in Liberation Drama!?:

          There’s only one person who can answer these questions

          And there’s the problem.

          He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
          BE AN ADULT

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
          • scvmS
            scvm
            last edited by

            did do they put babash yarger in this game yet or

            PavelP 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • PavelP
              Pavel @scvm
              last edited by

              @scvm babbish

              He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
              BE AN ADULT

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • CygnusC
                Cygnus
                last edited by Cygnus

                Great game when it was great. One of the best IMO, but Sundance stretched herself too thin. She’s quiet quit for well over a year now, and without others to make decisions, things sort of fell apart.

                I had a few bad interactions with Sundance, many in my group also did and most left because of several things that sucked –

                1. Unkillable NPCs/unwinnable plots – these took the wind out of everyone’s sails, and make the game feel like a novel. Granted they were great NPCs with great plots. But in this medium sometimes you gotta let that stuff go when there’s player fatigue. A prince that never actually held court but no one could question this? A Sabbat Ductus who was able to kill players freely but couldn’t be defeated? An ancient and racist evil character that even bringing up in RP could get you ganked? Yeah no, that stuff isn’t too fun.

                2. Uneven decisions – This was more part of Sun not being available IRL; in the beginning, she’d go through backgrounds with a fine-tooth comb and make sure that things fit the game’s narrative. Later, random and conflicting things were approved. When confronted with these mistakes, it tended to be a gaslight type of response. Sun was very rigid in her decision making, often at the expense of players over her carefully crafted plot.

                3. Slow jobs – I’m not talking one month, I’m talking 6 months no response and sudden closures; full year open jobs with no answer or explanation as to why they aren’t getting answered, plots with no resolution, and more. Just overall not the best in terms of actually playing the game.

                4. Entrenched cliques – this isn’t something that’s directly Sundance’s fault, but I do feel that it’s the job of a game owner to at least try and break these up a bit and foster crossplay. That said, Sun had her own clique which also happened to be part of the unkillable bloc, so good luck attempting to do anything plot-wise that involved those NPCs.

                5. Power imbalances – WOD games don’t put people on equal playing ground, this is true of all WOD games. But approving some players with 300-500 XP and others with 50 with no regard to how much effort or activity they bring to their sphere always felt like a kick in the teeth to people that Sun didn’t like. What was felt and what was true are two different things though, and it was likely more of a ‘too long didn’t read and I’ve got shit to do IRL’ kind of thing, though this doesn’t explain the XP differentials.

                There were some really great things about the game too, like awesome plot, great writers, and truly a large amount of nice players that were fun to be around. One of the things that Sun was best at was conflict resolution between players, and I truly loved the way she set up the MUSH in terms of job privacy and overall OOC masquerade.

                Even with all the negatives, I think the good outweighs the bad. If and when she gets her RL resolved I’d love to see her write up a new game or refresh the setting with a plot that was a bit more malleable and collaborative, learning from the mistakes she made the first go. I would absolutely play it, doubly so because truly a lot of these issues stemmed from Sundance just not being able to give the game the amount of attention it needed the first time. But she would definitely need to delegate way, way more. Running a game of so many people just isn’t feasible with one person. On top of this, she’d need to distance herself and her own RP from the plots, and be willing to let players win sometimes and enact some changes to the setting with their RP or else things will return to the same static problem.

                I WISH I had a game to play like Liberation was at it’s best. But it’s just not there at the moment. I hope that changes, and if anyone can do things justice, even with everything that happened there, I still have faith that Sundance is the person to make it happen if she comes back and puts in the effort.

                PavelP 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                • PavelP
                  Pavel @Cygnus
                  last edited by

                  @Cygnus said in Liberation Drama!?:

                  I still have faith that Sundance is the person to make it happen if she comes back and puts in the effort

                  How can this be your conclusion after all of the things you just said?

                  He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
                  BE AN ADULT

                  CygnusC W 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 4
                  • CygnusC
                    Cygnus @Pavel
                    last edited by

                    @Pavel I’ve seen the game at its best, and it was really great. The question is whether or not Sundance will actually do better or not; I believe she has the capacity for that, but can’t currently recommend the game. I further explained my reasoning for this in the OP -->

                    @Cygnus said in Liberation Drama!?:

                    Even with all the negatives, I think the good outweighs the bad. If and when she gets her RL resolved I’d love to see her write up a new game or refresh the setting with a plot that was a bit more malleable and collaborative, learning from the mistakes she made the first go. I would absolutely play it, doubly so because truly a lot of these issues stemmed from Sundance just not being able to give the game the amount of attention it needed the first time. But she would definitely need to delegate way, way more. Running a game of so many people just isn’t feasible with one person. On top of this, she’d need to distance herself and her own RP from the plots, and be willing to let players win sometimes and enact some changes to the setting with their RP or else things will return to the same static problem.

                    PavelP 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                    • PavelP
                      Pavel @Cygnus
                      last edited by

                      @Cygnus It honestly sounds as if Sundance needs to hand the keys over to someone(s) else. It seems as if her decisions, and her apparent subsequent burnout (or whatever caused the departure) are at fault for every complaint you have. I’m not going to make any kind of judgement call as to whether her decisions were the right ones or not. It’s not my circus and certainly not my The Monkees, but if she consistently makes decisions that have outcomes you don’t like, then expecting her to change isn’t really sensible.

                      He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
                      BE AN ADULT

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                      • W
                        Warma Sheen @Pavel
                        last edited by

                        @Pavel said in Liberation Drama!?:

                        @Cygnus said in Liberation Drama!?:

                        I still have faith that Sundance is the person to make it happen if she comes back and puts in the effort

                        How can this be your conclusion after all of the things you just said?

                        This is just a repackaged request/plea/wish that Sundance come back at her previously level of engagement, done in a way as though she might do so if only she realized the effects that her absence as had.

                        As if she doesn’t know.

                        If she wanted to come back and do her thing and was able to, she would. She either can’t or won’t. It is what it is.

                        PavelP CygnusC 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                        • PavelP
                          Pavel @Warma Sheen
                          last edited by

                          @Warma-Sheen I do like the idea that she’s some sort of tempestuous deity: “Fuck the pleas of people on my game… Let’s take a look at that forum full of fuck-asses that I don’t like and see what they say.”

                          He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
                          BE AN ADULT

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                          • tsarT
                            tsar
                            last edited by

                            I know that I shouldn’t be but I’m still always kind of ??? when someone can list all the things they don’t like about how a person ran a game and then be like but if they could just do it better I could play there again.

                            It’s hard as hell to put these games together and run them, IDK.

                            PavelP 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
                            • PavelP
                              Pavel @tsar
                              last edited by

                              @tsar I imagine that there’s a bit of sunk cost involved, if not outright “I’ve played this for so long that it’s basically be come part of my ritual/routine/life that is difficult to replicate.”

                              He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
                              BE AN ADULT

                              tsarT 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                              • CygnusC
                                Cygnus @Warma Sheen
                                last edited by

                                @Warma-Sheen When the alternatives for WOD MU*'s are such slop, it’s hard not to want to return to the glory days of Liberation. But it’s definitely not a plea, I don’t think Sundance reads or cares about what is said here. It’s just commentary

                                MisterBoringM W 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • tsarT
                                  tsar @Pavel
                                  last edited by

                                  @Pavel You’ve got a good point there.

                                  PavelP 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • PavelP
                                    Pavel @tsar
                                    last edited by

                                    @tsar said in Liberation Drama!?:

                                    @Pavel You’ve got a good point there.

                                    It does happen so rarely. 😞

                                    He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
                                    BE AN ADULT

                                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                    • MisterBoringM
                                      MisterBoring @Cygnus
                                      last edited by

                                      @Cygnus said in Liberation Drama!?:

                                      When the alternatives for WOD MU*'s are such slop, it’s hard not to want to return to the glory days of Liberation. But it’s definitely not a plea, I don’t think Sundance reads or cares about what is said here. It’s just commentary

                                      From my experience, WoD players like the games they like and refer to everything else as slop or crap or just bad, so we end up with the whole “one person’s trash is another person’s treasure” adage.

                                      Proud Member of the Pro-Mummy Alliance

                                      PavelP 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • PavelP
                                        Pavel @MisterBoring
                                        last edited by

                                        @MisterBoring said in Liberation Drama!?:

                                        @Cygnus said in Liberation Drama!?:

                                        When the alternatives for WOD MU*'s are such slop, it’s hard not to want to return to the glory days of Liberation. But it’s definitely not a plea, I don’t think Sundance reads or cares about what is said here. It’s just commentary

                                        From my experience, WoD players like the games they like and refer to everything else as slop or crap or just bad, so we end up with the whole “one person’s trash is another person’s treasure” adage.

                                        Eeeeeeh the only WoD games I know of are Liberation, Towers, and Dies Irae. I only have any experience of the latter two and there’s… definitely problems there. So honestly, I can empathise.

                                        He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
                                        BE AN ADULT

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                        • W
                                          Warma Sheen @Cygnus
                                          last edited by

                                          @Cygnus I understand. And I get it. I’ve actually been there myself, probably more times than I can remember. It just kind of sucks at the state of things.

                                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
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