pvp vs pvp

Jenn

might be kind of lame

Y’all. It’s 2025. Can we maybe think about trying to use a different word here?

Roz

i do want to respond to the idea that OOC masque is necessary because RPers can be immature and can’t be trusted otherwise: if that is the case with the players you have, that’s a player problem and those players will find a different way to cause problems.

it’s basically treating a symptom instead of the cause. if you don’t have a masque and a player throws a hissy over something, then boot the player.

Pavel

@Roz Agreed.

Don’t get me wrong, I do love an OOC Masq. Mystery is fun, especially in a game culture where people are friendly and engaging, and they’re all as invested in the idea of maintaining the mystery as I am. I’d even argue that for a good version of an OOC Masquerade you’d actually need more trust than otherwise.

(For those unfamiliar the OOC masquerade is the concept where one doesn’t know details about other characters. “Don’t talk about players, alts, or OOC info your character wouldn’t know. Keep the mystery, protect the immersion, and respect the game.”)

MisterBoring

I think OOC Masq is silly given that our hobby is at its core supposed to be collaborative storytelling, and OOC Masq prevents collaboration. Also, there’s no way in the current era of speedy communication to prevent OOC conversations off game that shatter that Masq.

Also, in my experience, any time one PC learns juicy secrets about another PC through legitimate IC means, someone eventually claims some combination of cheating, OOC Masq violation, or staff favoritism. And in some cases, the person making that claim is totally unrelated to that particular instance of secrets being uncovered.

The most ridiculous version of OOC Masq drama I have ever seen went like this:

Player A accidentally paged Player B with an IC secret about their character that they had meant to page staff about.
Player B, realizing they were just given an IC secret about Player A’s character by Player A through OOC means immediately went off on public channels about it. They tried to get Player A removed from the game for the accident, claiming that if Player A couldn’t respect their own OOC Masq, how could they be trusted with anyone else’s OOC Masq.
Player B continued to harass staff, Player A, and other Players about getting Player A banned for the next week before finally letting it go.
Player B’s character took action against Player A’s character using the very secret he learned OOCly and was called out by Staff for this.
Player B told staff that since Player A couldn’t maintain the OOC Masq, their character should just be eliminated, making their ban from the game easier. Player B could not explain how he came to know the secret IC, and admitted that he didn’t do anything to learn it.
Staff banned Player B for being an arse.

Pavel

@MisterBoring said in pvp vs pvp:

given that our hobby is at its core supposed to be collaborative storytelling

Given that how you want to play is collaborative storytelling. Just because that’s what (general) we forum users tend to prefer doesn’t make that the default for the hobby as a whole.

Autumn

I agree with both of you! I enjoy not knowing everything OOC about other characters so I can discover it in play, and I enjoy knowing enough OOC about other characters to make RP happen.

If I’m playing in the Vampire sphere, I find it useful to know who the other vampire characters are, so I know who to look for if I want to talk IC about vampire stuff without a lot of hemming and hawing to make sure we’re not breaking the IC Masquerade by doing so. On the other hand, I don’t want to know what their sheets look like or what their backstories are because I enjoy that mystery.

But I’m also pretty sure everyone draws the line dividing “things they like to know about OOC” from “things they like to not know about OOC” in a different place. OOC Masq is a spectrum.

Pavel

@Autumn said in pvp vs pvp:

OOC Masq is a spectrum

Basically everything is, especially matters of preference. But everyone has their way, and their way is superior because it’s theirs, etc, etc.

Jenn

@Pavel said in pvp vs pvp:

Given that how you want to play is collaborative storytelling. Just because that’s what (general) we forum users tend to prefer doesn’t make that the default for the hobby as a whole.

I try not to slip into the idea of there being ‘wrong fun’ even if it’s not a style of fun that’s fun for me.

But. I’m not sure I can see this in ways that wouldn’t be wrong fun. This hobby is LITERALLY comprised of nothing more than dice and co-writing stories with each other. Co-writing stories seems to be a definition of collaborative storytelling, unless your only and entire RP is a string of endless vignettes.

Could you expain how it’s possible to MUSH without collaborative storytelling because I’m super confused and not understanding what you mean.

Pavel

@Jenn Sure. First:

@Jenn said in pvp vs pvp:

This hobby is LITERALLY comprised of nothing more than dice and co-writing stories with each other.

That’s not true.

That’s what we primarily do. It’s not the entirety of the hobby. MUDs are included, RPIs, weird shit I don’t even know about are probably included too. Cybersphere was an example I used earlier, and that’s definitely a MU. It had/has RP, deep and meaningful storylines. It also had the risk of you just being gunned down in the street, using combat code without any RP, because someone wanted your shoes.

Faraday

@Jenn said in pvp vs pvp:

Could you expain how it’s possible to MUSH without collaborative storytelling because I’m super confused and not understanding what you mean.

There is no one true universal definition for what a MUSH is. For some it’s more TTRPG+some writing. For others it’s more storytelling with (maybe) some dice or cards or something. Different players and games fall at different points along that scale.

But even if we accept the supposition that collaborative writing is the core, how you collaborate is open for debate.

Think of an improv troupe. It’s more about going with the flow on the fly, not knowing detailed backstories and collaborating OOC about the details and stuff. I think that’s akin to an OOC Masq.

Jenn

@Pavel

I guess I should have been clearer. It was stated earlier we were talking about PvP MUSH’s rather than MUDs or other things. I’ve not encounterd a MUSH that wasn’t storytelling first and foremost, but. There a a lot of things I haven’t encountered, too.

Pavel

@Jenn said in pvp vs pvp:

It was stated earlier we were talking about PvP MUSH’s rather than MUDs or other things.

Unfortunately, as @Faraday said, there’s no clear distinction between MUSH and ‘other things.’ Does coded combat make it not a MUSH? Does roleplay make it not a MUD? Does a lack of furries make it not a MOO? There’s no hard line.

Pavel

And this is only anecdotal, but my experience of MUing earlier than the last decade… two decades… or so has been… less collaborative and more authoritative. Staff ran plot, and players reacted to it. Co-creation wasn’t really as important as it is now, sure it happened but it wasn’t the focus. So, storytelling? Absolutely. Collaborative? Not to much of my recollection.

As more and more places put the storytelling onus on players more than staff, player agency increased, and so co-creation became a requirement rather than an optional extra. So it certainly feels more collaborative than it was.

Though that could also be because we’re all fifty years older and we don’t have time to tolerate the bullshit we used to put up with.