Historical Games Round 75

[Testament]

@bear_necessities Okay that’s fair, but my question is if you(general you, not you specifically) want to be ‘over there where the monsters are’ and by and large I doubt the monsters are going to care if this Earth has resolved the whole -isms thing, what does it matter if it’s an alternate version or not? Why is the fact that it’s an alternate Earth make it a hangup?

[Pavel]

@Testament said in New Concept:

Why is the fact that it’s an alternate Earth make it a hangup?

Firstly, it’s just a preference. Those of us who like the “warts and all” historical setting simply have a preference for it; we’re not making demands that people submit to our will or anything. People just like things, sometimes, and that’s okay.

Secondly, it’s more work (for me) to pretend that something isn’t a part of a real-world setting than a totally fantastical one. Society has formed through the lens of various forms of bigotry and prejudice, and it’s far easier in my head to concede that Arx society doesn’t have sexism, because I’ve never seen the effects of an Arx society with sexism.

Third, for me, is that historical settings should be reasonably accurate in their depiction. That is, for me, the point of setting something historically. If you’re going to pick and choose what parts of a historical setting to ignore - as in totally ignore, not just choose not to focus on it - then why not just make up a setting without all those bits instead?

[bear_necessities]

@Testament I mean, like @Pavel said, it’s just a preference. I don’t like playing alternative earth games where we’ve solved all the -isms, and I also don’t want to read ten thousand pages of lore to get a mild grasp on what I’m doing. And that isn’t because I don’t like lore - I love world building and that sort of shit - I just frankly don’t have the time to read a ton of stuff in order to play anywhere anymore. I can plug & play into historical 1920s with monsters far easier than “this is 1920s but not real earth but in FakeEarth1 where the aliens descended and solved all the world’s problems except that monster problem and oh go here, here and here to find out everything about the world and…” <-- I’m old, tired, and don’t have time for that.

I actually prefer what @Pyrephox said above, because I too find those themes interesting and exciting to play, but I also tend to play with people I trust, so maybe that’s why I’m okay with that? I know @Pyrephox and @KarmaBum and @tsar and @Snackness aren’t going to go crazy on me and would be respectful of my limits, etc. But that’s kind of off topic for this.

[Testament]

@bear_necessities Fair enough answer. I think I have a disconnect in the fact that I don’t think I’d trust people enough to handle those kind of issues delicately, so in my mind it’s just easier for everyone involved if it’s just axed entirely and handwave some blase OOC notation that says, “It’s not a thing.”

As we’ve seen, we’ve seen some pretty strong reactions to the idea of having to deal with those kind of themes and issues when some players have to deal with it in their own lives on an everyday basis.

That said, I also understand just not having the time or inclination to read X amount of theme files in order to play something. It’s a hard tightrope to balance.

[Faraday]

@Testament said in New Concept:

Why is the fact that it’s an alternate Earth make it a hangup?

You know how people talk about the “uncanny valley” effect in CGI? There’s an uncomfortable middle ground between real humans and obviously-fake cartoons? In the uncanny valley, things are close but just kind of off in some subconsciously-triggering way. Alt-history settings are like that for me.

Also, one of the reasons I like historical games is because of the setting, good and bad. I grew up inspired by stories about people like Mary Edwards Walker, who became a doctor in an era where not many women could, volunteered (rather forcibly) as a Civil War surgeon, and was awarded the Medal of Honor. Or Kate Marne, who used the fact that nobody would expect a woman to be a detective to nab criminals and spy for the Union. One of my favorite historical-MU storylines was about a woman who grew past her historically-typical bigotry after a trio of LGBTQ chars became like family to her.

Bigotry is bad, but I believe these kinds of stories have value. I want to believe there’s a way to have a space where people can tell those kinds of stories in a historical setting, while also being a safe space where people don’t have to confront that crap if they don’t want to. Some combination of consent and content warnings or something, like what @L-B-Heuschkel described.

Or just go alt-history. That’s fine. It’s not my jam, but I can understand if people just want to avoid the issues altogether.

[farfalla]

@bear_necessities said in New Concept:

I do understand not wanting to actively play scenes involving extreme -isms and absolutely not suggesting that happen here, but I would happily play in a 1920s game where the sticker on the front says “this shit is happening but we’re here to fight nightmares not be racists”.

I almost have more problems with this approach than with just having era-appropriate discriminations. I can’t grasp the idea that there’s massive oppression and we’re just all ignoring it. I don’t know how to play that; those things would be so fundamental to both society and also everything about a marginalized character’s identity. Okay, I’m in a town where that doesn’t happen because we’re busy with monsters, but the character is still informed by a lifetime of oppression, but now I’m just ignoring that - doesn’t make sense in my brain.

Apparently I’m team BAT for the setting but I can’t BAT internal character cohesion.

[Testament]

@Faraday I will say that in absolutely no way am I trying to take away agency for those kind of stories. Or that they’re not just as valid as any other. At it’s core, I personally have no issue with that, but I also find historical fiction not interesting, and that’s a me thing I admit(reading about it is a whole other story, I enjoy reading and watching media about it). And that generally tends boil down to “It’s already been done, it’s already happened.” But just with historical fiction, I don’t do modern day. Generally, it has be so far into science fiction or fantasy that draws me into a theme or genre, mostly because it defies belief and expectations. And then I just want to read everything that I can get my hands on.

My preferences isn’t the point here, however. It’s a desire to want to be respectful to those who struggles with these issues far more than I ever will, so it’s part of me that tries to be respectful in regards towards it. When I created my game, I had a couple of major points of doing so. One of my online friends wanted to portray the fact they could have a same sex marriage without being derided because, the game being of the fantasy genre with lines of nobility an whatnot, is going to be looked down on that because it wasn’t going to result in children. While some players I know, might take that in stride as apart of IC growth and social conflict, this wasn’t the case. And that really bothered my friend, who felt like their character was being treated as a second class citizen in game because of their orientation. It was something that stuck with me months and years later when I finally decided to make a game of my own and decided that “I’m never going to make a character or a player feel like that.”

So in my head, it’s far easier to just make an entire world/theme/history/lore/etc that has nothing based in historical or modern reality. And I can create that kind of social constraints by applying them in completely different ways and still feel like it’s an IC conflict, without having it be based on something like gender, orientations, religion, etc etc.

But it just being of a personal preference? Hey, I can respect that. I think it goes without all saying that we all have types of genres and themes that we’re going to view more favorably than others simply because it’s what we like. I don’t hate on historical fiction or modern day(I tried Changeling, really I did, and it just never grabbed me, and I hate myself for that), I just know after countless attempts that it’s just never stuck me.

[L. B. Heuschkel]

@Testament That take is entirely valid (and really only goes to show why games can’t be for everyone). I’m the opposite – I don’t want to learn a whole fictional world when there’s a real, historical one right here with endless cues and prompts for action.

Either take’s valid, I figure.

[KarmaBum]

@farfalla said in New Concept:

I can’t grasp the idea that there’s massive oppression and we’re just all ignoring it.

You and I had a scene on a game set in the “real world” on 2/6/2019 - the day of Trump’s State of the Union Address, the day Pope Francis acknowledged sexual predation by priests against nuns, and a few other things, and we totally ignored it in our RP and focused on magical wolves coming out of portals and mauling stupid stoners.

Honest question: does the fact that it’s historical and not modern have an impact?

We do this all the time in modern settings. I believe Keys and Network both have a “no COVID” take on things, no? So is it harder to put out of mind because it’s historical?

[Pavel]

I think that we, here and generally, need to get better at just accepting “I like things X way” as a complete answer for things like this.

[L. B. Heuschkel]

@KarmaBum said in New Concept:

We do this all the time in modern settings. I believe Keys and Network both have a “no COVID” take on things, no? So is it harder to put out of mind because it’s historical?

Not a complete No Covid take but close. We request that players downplay things that might lead to pointless OOC arguments, such as contemporary politics (think Trump) and Covid-19. They do exist but no one wants to hear about it in their pretendy fun time.

[KarmaBum]

@Pavel I don’t think anyone’s not accepting it. Just being curious about other people.

I’ve known @farfalla since we were both basically children, and she and I have discussed some in the past where our prefs are different - and they are wildly different. But she’s awesome and if there is middle-ground, it’s worth finding.

[Pavel]

@KarmaBum said in New Concept:

Honest question: does the fact that it’s historical and not modern have an impact?

Yes.

The timeline diverges the minute the game starts, with perhaps a few bits of salt added to the past for flavour (like vampire control of governments or a town having been there the whole time, etc) without changing the overall situation that lead to today.

Why? Because I’m not living in the Wild West and want to experience it. I’m living through COVID and do not want to experience it.

[KarmaBum]

@Pavel said in New Concept:

The timeline diverges the minute the game starts

No. The timeline in this instance was unaltered. There was stuff for this particular small town, but there was no larger rewriting of global political history. (I was making “build the wall” jokes because that’s what was topical at the time and I always grab low-hanging fruit.) Hence why I wanted to pick farf’s brain on this one.

It could be that she hated it the whole time and bounced because it killed it for her. It could also be that she had a different take four years ago than she does today. But I’m curious.

[Pavel]

@KarmaBum said in New Concept:

@Pavel said in New Concept:

The timeline diverges the minute the game starts

No. The timeline in this instance was unaltered. There was stuff for this particular small town, but there was no larger rewriting of global political history.

That’s not what I meant. When a game starts, what happens after is a diverged timeline from reality.

Besides, I was answering your question generally, not specifically.

[KarmaBum]

@Pavel I know. I was speaking specifically.

[Pavel]

@KarmaBum Please don’t use smileys when you’re talking to me, I rather dislike them.

[bear_necessities]

@farfalla I’m admittedly not explaining myself the well but I agree with what @KarmaBum said below and pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter. Although just to add some clarity, I’m not saying these things shouldn’t affect your character or that it shouldn’t be an important part of their background, but it also doesn’t have to be the focal point of the story? Like I don’t need to be fighting monsters while also actively treating another PC like shit because of <insert -ism here>.

Hopefully that makes sense. Words are hard.

[farfalla]

@KarmaBum said in New Concept:

Honest question: does the fact that it’s historical and not modern have an impact?

Why would you call me out like this omg. I honestly don’t know! I think the answer is yes, but I don’t know why. Scale maybe? I typed up some answers but I think they get too political for poor @BloodAngel’s post about the cthulu game lol. But it’s definitely easier for me to ignore covid than, like, slavery.

@bear_necessities said in New Concept:

Although just to add some clarity, I’m not saying these things shouldn’t affect your character or that it shouldn’t be an important part of their background, but it also doesn’t have to be the focal point of the story?

I wasn’t arguing with you, sorry if it came across that way! Your post just made me think about it. I very much understand this position, in the same way that I understand people who can’t BAT. I was just interested in my own reaction, which is that I don’t want to have it inform my character I just want to kiss ladies, but ignoring it feels weird.

My thoughts are probably also informed by the fact that I’ve never played a historical game, in part because I couldn’t get past this hurdle and in part because there just aren’t that many. And I’ve only played two contemporary games - I’m mostly in fantasy land, tbh, where I appreciate not having to deal with the modern day oppressions.

I do definitely think it’s just a random person to person preference with no right answer, in the same way that grid vs no grid or logging vs not logging or an infinite number of other preferences are.

[Pavel]

@farfalla said in New Concept:

logging vs not logging

I draw a line in the sand here. People who don’t log are weird and wrong and should be ashamed of themselves. It’s unnatural.