Liberation Drama!?
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@Cygnus said in Liberation Drama!?:
I still have faith that Sundance is the person to make it happen if she comes back and puts in the effort
How can this be your conclusion after all of the things you just said?
He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
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@Pavel I’ve seen the game at its best, and it was really great. The question is whether or not Sundance will actually do better or not; I believe she has the capacity for that, but can’t currently recommend the game. I further explained my reasoning for this in the OP -->
@Cygnus said in Liberation Drama!?:
Even with all the negatives, I think the good outweighs the bad. If and when she gets her RL resolved I’d love to see her write up a new game or refresh the setting with a plot that was a bit more malleable and collaborative, learning from the mistakes she made the first go. I would absolutely play it, doubly so because truly a lot of these issues stemmed from Sundance just not being able to give the game the amount of attention it needed the first time. But she would definitely need to delegate way, way more. Running a game of so many people just isn’t feasible with one person. On top of this, she’d need to distance herself and her own RP from the plots, and be willing to let players win sometimes and enact some changes to the setting with their RP or else things will return to the same static problem.
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@Cygnus It honestly sounds as if Sundance needs to hand the keys over to someone(s) else. It seems as if her decisions, and her apparent subsequent burnout (or whatever caused the departure) are at fault for every complaint you have. I’m not going to make any kind of judgement call as to whether her decisions were the right ones or not. It’s not my circus and certainly not my The Monkees, but if she consistently makes decisions that have outcomes you don’t like, then expecting her to change isn’t really sensible.
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@Pavel said in Liberation Drama!?:
@Cygnus said in Liberation Drama!?:
I still have faith that Sundance is the person to make it happen if she comes back and puts in the effort
How can this be your conclusion after all of the things you just said?
This is just a repackaged request/plea/wish that Sundance come back at her previously level of engagement, done in a way as though she might do so if only she realized the effects that her absence as had.
As if she doesn’t know.
If she wanted to come back and do her thing and was able to, she would. She either can’t or won’t. It is what it is.
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@Warma-Sheen I do like the idea that she’s some sort of tempestuous deity: “Fuck the pleas of people on my game… Let’s take a look at that forum full of fuck-asses that I don’t like and see what they say.”
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I know that I shouldn’t be but I’m still always kind of ??? when someone can list all the things they don’t like about how a person ran a game and then be like but if they could just do it better I could play there again.
It’s hard as hell to put these games together and run them, IDK.
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@tsar I imagine that there’s a bit of sunk cost involved, if not outright “I’ve played this for so long that it’s basically be come part of my ritual/routine/life that is difficult to replicate.”
He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
BE AN ADULT -
@Warma-Sheen When the alternatives for WOD MU*'s are such slop, it’s hard not to want to return to the glory days of Liberation. But it’s definitely not a plea, I don’t think Sundance reads or cares about what is said here. It’s just commentary
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@Pavel You’ve got a good point there.
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@Cygnus said in Liberation Drama!?:
When the alternatives for WOD MU*'s are such slop, it’s hard not to want to return to the glory days of Liberation. But it’s definitely not a plea, I don’t think Sundance reads or cares about what is said here. It’s just commentary
From my experience, WoD players like the games they like and refer to everything else as slop or crap or just bad, so we end up with the whole “one person’s trash is another person’s treasure” adage.
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@MisterBoring said in Liberation Drama!?:
@Cygnus said in Liberation Drama!?:
When the alternatives for WOD MU*'s are such slop, it’s hard not to want to return to the glory days of Liberation. But it’s definitely not a plea, I don’t think Sundance reads or cares about what is said here. It’s just commentary
From my experience, WoD players like the games they like and refer to everything else as slop or crap or just bad, so we end up with the whole “one person’s trash is another person’s treasure” adage.
Eeeeeeh the only WoD games I know of are Liberation, Towers, and Dies Irae. I only have any experience of the latter two and there’s… definitely problems there. So honestly, I can empathise.
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@Cygnus I understand. And I get it. I’ve actually been there myself, probably more times than I can remember. It just kind of sucks at the state of things.
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Anyone else having issues trying to connect, or did I get stealth banned for some unknown reason in the month I haven’t really logged in?
️ Looking up address game.liberationmush.site:2020
️ Address is 5.161.78.92:2020, Connecting…
Error: No connection could be made because the target machine actively refused it. (0000274D)
️ Will try to reconnect in 30 secondsI can’t even get to the wiki pages.
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@Alamias Game is still up and accessible for me.
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@Cygnus’s numbered points are all true. Probably understated.
It’s not because Sundance is unavailable, though.
Sundance has stated that model world building is the kick she gets out of the game. It’s not like a novel. If it was a novel you’d get to see what’s going on. It’s like a scale railroad presented in a glass box full of fog. You see the lights go by from time to time. She’s having fun building the details you might glimpse.
And sure enough, a person can build a not-very-interactive model-world MU if they wants. It’s the thinking that such a thing is a good game that’s the error. Alas, Sundance appears to have fallen into the trap of only taking seriously those people who are least likely to criticise her. So she does that stuff listed in those numbered points because it protects/serves/maintains the model world following her plan/vision. She appears to take objections as just being haters who don’t think she’s allowed to have fun with her own game – her trusted group don’t criticise, so she can dismiss others who point out how that shit is not fun.
I disagree entirely about the OOC Masquerade policy, which is, like OOC masq everywhere, a Bad Idea, a Pain In The Ass, and a Boon To Bad Actors.
I also disagree about Sun’s interplayer conflict resolution, which I have invariably found to be either in service to maintaining the untouchableness of the model-world, or in service to claiming to have resolved the problem as fast as possible, or informed by The Fallacy of the Golden Mean (the notion that if there are two opposing viewpoints the truth always lies in the middle.)
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@Gashlycrumb In all my years of gaming only one ST had the ignorance and nerve to attempt correcting me by telling me what my character would feel and how they would react. My character I’d been playing 8 years at that point, long before Lib. Then she ultimately would rather ban me and my partner than answer anything in a direct way, while simultaneously spamming the game with posts about how players are never to be trusted.
Trembling despot.
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@Aria I can log in via cell phone, so it’s definitely something IP or provider related. I wonder if I was collateral damage in an IP ban or something…
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@Alamias said in Liberation Drama!?:
@Aria I can log in via cell phone, so it’s definitely something IP or provider related. I wonder if I was collateral damage in an IP ban or something…
It’s possible. I have no idea who you played, but if you want to PM me, I can always ping a staffer the next time I see one online and try to ask.
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@Gashlycrumb said in Liberation Drama!?:
And sure enough, a person can build a not-very-interactive model-world MU if they wants. It’s the thinking that such a thing is a good game that’s the error. Alas, Sundance appears to have fallen into the trap of only taking seriously those people who are least likely to criticise her. So she does that stuff listed in those numbered points because it protects/serves/maintains the model world following her plan/vision. She appears to take objections as just being haters who don’t think she’s allowed to have fun with her own game – her trusted group don’t criticise, so she can dismiss others who point out how that shit is not fun.
You’re describing a chicken/egg situation. Does she listen to the people that don’t criticize her? Or does she just make her own decisions? Then it just looks like she’s ignoring people that have a different opinion and listening to the people who agree. Its impossible to put yourself into someone else’s’ head. So you can only guess at what is actually happening. Either way, she should protect her world model. 100%. That’s not a bug, its a feature. Otherwise, you just end up with a chaotic mess of characters breaking shit in a game world that spins out of control quickly, because some/many/most players are greedy and ungrateful and nothing is ever enough for them.
I actually found Liberation to be very interactive (when it was active, years ago). The problem is that some players think they are entitled to win everything all the time and do whatever they want without consequences. And if they can’t, then it isn’t “fun”. There’s a reason the WoD and RL are so closely matched in terms of what the world looks like. There’s a reason the WoD isn’t a stark raving mad planet of supernatural creatures run amok terrorizing whoever they want with whatever they want whenever they want with God-kings and mortal slaves by the billions. There are absolutely people/individuals/things that can appear as if from nowhere and tell you to shut the fuck up, sit the fuck down and follow directions. And if you have an issue with that, then be prepared to lose your head. How else is it that the existence of all these 80 bajillion types of monsters have been kept unknown to most of the world for thousands of years? Ex. You think you’re the first vampire to ever think of ghouling the mayor? Get real. If it hasn’t happened already, there’s a strong reason for that. But it just isn’t feasible to play out those reasons on an constant ongoing basis in a way meaningful enough to remind players to stay in line. That’s what theme is for. To sum it all up and let you know how things work. You have to buy into the theme of the game or you’re gonna just keep running head first into walls, then trying to blame your frustration on the game runner.
NPCs aren’t always “unkillable” just because YOU can’t kill them. There’s just things out there that are higher up the food chain than PCs. Older, stronger, more powerful. And by orders of magnitude. Might makes right. They make the rules. They say what goes. So when they say stay out of the public eye or don’t use powers on public figures or don’t create a cult or don’t say the word ‘kazoo’ on Thursdays or whatever the hell rules they want: you follow the rules and keep things the way they want it or get stomped the fuck out. That’s not Sundance’s world model. That’s WoD’s world model. That’s just the setting of the game. And it is intended to be untouchable. WoD built a world model then directed you into very specific areas of play in different books that you have access to as a PC. You don’t get all of it, at least according to the setting of WoD. And by the nature of MU*s that throw everyone into one big mix of different books, what happens is up to the game runner. If you want to play outside of that sandbox, you need to go to a game that intends for that. If you want to take on characters that are thousands of years old with your 9 months of xp and expect to win, go to a game that will let you do something so silly.
TL:DR The game is what Sundance allows it to be - which is closer to what WoD is supposed to be than pretty much any WoD game since. If its not for you that doesn’t mean Sundance is doing it wrong. It just isn’t for you. Just find a different game. Or better yet, make your own game. Best of luck.
