MU Peeves Thread
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@Narrator said in MU Peeves Thread:
@hellfrog said in MU Peeves Thread:
@Narrator this has nothing to do with this thread, please shut up
This is the MU Peeves thread. âYou replaced smart people with purple prose and pronounsâ is a pretty scathing peeve. But no wonder you want me to shut up. That peeve applies to you, personally.
lmao i canât imagine why someone wouldnât want you listen to you.
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Right now the biggest benefit of LLMs I see for this community would be in editing arguments made for their inclusion less wordy, more concise and compendious.
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@Roz said in MU Peeves Thread:
Lol nobodyâs pulling these out for every piece of text that comes in. Theyâre pulling them out when something is already obvious enough that it twigs peopleâs senses of âthis feels off.â And then the results are inevitably like 99% because if it pings someoneâs gut, itâs because itâs a pretty terrible example.
Theyâre not wasting nearly as many resources as the generative AI itself.
Cope.
What in the world are you talking about? The MUSH style of game has never replaced MUDs, and theyâve basically coexisted alongside each other for decades. MUDs are still plentiful now, probably moreso than MUSH style games. They serve different audiences and fulfill different niches. This is not a matter of âone is right and one is wrong.â
(And the idea that MUDs never have weird OOC issues with cliques isâŚa strange take.)
The kind of people into the sort of thing Iâm talking about by and large graduated from MUDs into things like EVE Online, which often donât rely on roleplaying at all.
??? I literally donât care if some code-heavy MUDs want to make use of LLMs to generate automated responses in their code. I donât want generative AI writing on the games that are specifically focused on collaborative writing.
You could also use them as automated builders in the MUSH sense. You could have a blank room thatâs earmarked for generation, and then when a player first enters it, the room, and all of the adjacent rooms, and all of the mobs and items and so on in those rooms, get fed into an LLM, and it generates a new room for you, with new mobs and new items and exits, and between 0 and 10 new rooms that are also earmarked for generation, iteratively.
That would be really cool. It could be done with API use of an LLM, but Iâd prefer a locally-run one fine-tuned on the right materials than a commercial one like Claude2 or GPT-4.
You got rid of the grognards and the math geeks and now all you have are people who think RPGs are about purple prose and pronouns.
Oh Jesus Christ.
Not an argument.
ChatGPT doesnât need you veering off in a conversation just to shill for it.
By âChatGPTâ do you mean âLLMsâ? They arenât all interchangeable. But like I said. Itâs not going away no matter how mad you get about it.
Not an argument.
My guy, to the crowd who thinks that itâs actually a better use of time and resources trying to detect LLMs so you can squelch them than it is to fiddle with them and make them serve your purposes better, it absolutely does need paragraphs of explanation.
Itâs literally been like 0.5% of the time spent on the game I help staff on. This is not actually a big investment.
Please post the games you staff on so I can avoid them at all costs.
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@Narrator said in MU Peeves Thread:
What in the world are you talking about? The MUSH style of game has never replaced MUDs, and theyâve basically coexisted alongside each other for decades. MUDs are still plentiful now, probably moreso than MUSH style games. They serve different audiences and fulfill different niches. This is not a matter of âone is right and one is wrong.â
(And the idea that MUDs never have weird OOC issues with cliques isâŚa strange take.)
The kind of people into the sort of thing Iâm talking about graduated from MUDs into things like EVE Online, which often donât rely on roleplaying at all.
Wow sounds like they had some different interests in their hobby life! Wild that different people are interested in different things.
??? I literally donât care if some code-heavy MUDs want to make use of LLMs to generate automated responses in their code. I donât want generative AI writing on the games that are specifically focused on collaborative writing.
You could also use them as automated builders in the MUSH sense. You could have a blank room thatâs earmarked for generation, and then when a player first enters it, the room, and all of the adjacent rooms, and all of the mobs and items and so on in those rooms, get fed into an LLM, and it generates a new room for you, with new mobs and new items and exits, and between 0 and 10 new rooms that are also earmarked for generation, iteratively.
Yeah, having mobs and items and generated rooms are â not actually the point of some games. Because, again, different games have different focuses and audiences.
My guy, to the crowd who thinks that itâs actually a better use of time and resources trying to detect LLMs so you can squelch them than it is to fiddle with them and make them serve your purposes better, it absolutely does need paragraphs of explanation.
Itâs literally been like 0.5% of the time spent on the game I help staff on. This is not actually a big investment.
Please post the games you staff on so I can avoid them at all costs.
Has your deep technical expertise left you overlooking the publicly-posted playlist linked in the signature of literally all my forum posts?
Or were you too scared to look in the face of terrifying pronouns preceding it? I know, I know â basic parts of speech are pretty scary to think about.
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@Narrator Dismissing the âMU*â segment of RPG players as backward overlooks their preference for narrative-driven experiences. The shift from MUDs to MUSHes reflects a desire for deeper storytelling and social interaction, not a regression. While AI like LLMs may offer potential as automated GMs, they lack the nuanced understanding and emotional depth of human game masters, risking a loss of the human touch essential to RPGs.
Introducing AI into RPGs could alienate players who value traditional, hands-on approaches. RPGs are social experiences that thrive on human creativity and spontaneity, which AI cannot replicate. Instead of relying on AI, the community should focus on nurturing talent, encouraging creativity, and embracing diverse play styles. Preserving the core values of collaboration and personal engagement is crucial to maintaining what makes RPGs special.
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@NotSanni said in MU Peeves Thread:
@Narrator said in MU Peeves Thread:
@hellfrog said in MU Peeves Thread:
@Narrator this has nothing to do with this thread, please shut up
This is the MU Peeves thread. âYou replaced smart people with purple prose and pronounsâ is a pretty scathing peeve. But no wonder you want me to shut up. That peeve applies to you, personally.
lmao i canât imagine why someone wouldnât want you listen to you.
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@Narrator
lol my dude did you just compare yourself to Jesus on a message board? Is that where we are now? -
@Third-Eye said in MU Peeves Thread:
@Narrator
lol my dude did you just compare yourself to Jesus on a message board? Is that where we are now?dude is producing internet content for incels on 4chan, so, not a big surprise there
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@NotSanni said in MU Peeves Thread:
dude is producing internet content for incels on 4chan, so, not a big surprise there
I have seriously been wondering if this was a 4chan guy but he seemed different than the standard 4chan guy? IDK, maybe they contain multitudes.
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@Third-Eye said in MU Peeves Thread:
@NotSanni said in MU Peeves Thread:
dude is producing internet content for incels on 4chan, so, not a big surprise there
I have seriously been wondering if this was a 4chan guy but he seemed different than the standard 4chan guy? IDK, maybe they contain multitudes.
nah i found the âzineâ theyâre publishing, including the zineâs social media presence on the fediverse (and one of the two main contributors to the zineâs accounts/handles).
thereâs a reason they werenât loud and proud with the fact that they publish IDDQD Magazine and instead did a soft sell (probably trying to find likeminded people here to DM them to grift for money).
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@NotSanni said in MU Peeves Thread:
@Third-Eye said in MU Peeves Thread:
@NotSanni said in MU Peeves Thread:
dude is producing internet content for incels on 4chan, so, not a big surprise there
I have seriously been wondering if this was a 4chan guy but he seemed different than the standard 4chan guy? IDK, maybe they contain multitudes.
nah i found the âzineâ theyâre publishing, including the zineâs social media presence on the fediverse (and one of the two main contributors to the zineâs accounts/handles).
thereâs a reason they werenât loud and proud with the fact that they publish IDDQD Magazine and instead did a soft sell (probably trying to find likeminded people here to DM them to grift for money).
ah yes, our old friend NEETzsche, we meet again
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I know I did this to myself and really itâs a board peeve and not a MU* peeve. But damn. I want my last X amount of minutes back in my life from reading all that.
carry on.
I did this to myself. Self board peeve.
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all Iâm writing now is purple prose.
and oh my â itâs florid.
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@Testament said in MU Peeves Thread:
@Tez said in MU Peeves Thread:
@Tez said in MU Peeves Thread:
I am begging game-runners to stop using ChatGPT.
I AM BEGGING PLAYERS TO STOP USING CHATGPT.
IâLL STOP USING IT WHEN GAMES STOP ASKING FOR DESCS
Disclaimer: If it wasnât obvious; this is a joke, I use it to get ideas for a desc and then actually write one. As much as I absolutely loath to write it.
Although this is a joke: I do think that the advent of AI has done one small favour to the MU* genre, which is expose a lot of the drudgery that people donât want to do. If people are so unmotivated to write or read prosaic descs that one could literally replace them with AI-generated slop, and in the minds of some people that would be better, then those are aspects of the game that might be superfluous.
I think this is a bigger problem on MUDs than MUSHes, but there are games where instead of walking in and posing, "Kestrel arrives on the scene, wearing a white T-shirt and jeans. She looks around curiously and then waves to Testament", I would have a white T-shirt and jeans as codified objects on my person, that can be examined. And because some people think more prose is always better, there can be a cultural expectation that your character isnât properly presentable unless each of those objects has a paragraph describing them. Even though no one cares, and no one is going to read a paragraph describing a white T-shirt. Itâs a white fkn T-shirt, what more is there to say?
Thatâs the stuff I see people delegating to AI a lot now, and thatâs my peeve. We should just rethink outdated cultural norms, instead.
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Did that guy really turn up to a MU* board to tell us all that MU* games are dumb and weâre dumb for playing them?
Lol. Lmao. Donât come back.
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I will never understand people acting like descs donât matter, or that no one reads them. If you donât read the desc of your scene partner, that is fkin rude. Itâs a verbal medium. If you donât want to read a paragraph to get your mental image right, that is a you issue. Not a game design issue.
Are they difficult to write sometimes? Sure. Drudgery?? What?? You absolutely cannot replace them with LLM slop without it being painfully, repulsively obvious, and I have literally never in all my years in this hobby seen someone disparaging a desc for not having a paragraph to describe clothes. That doesnât mean it doesnât ever happen, but itâs not some widespread standard.
fr fr
(she/her) -
@hellfrog I think to me, the best amount of description/background/whatever is however much it takes to get the point across and not a word more. Sometimes you have people writing to a minimum word count because thatâs the culture or theyâre self-conscious and thatâs when it can become a slog to read. All this could be avoided if theyâd written âitâs a white t-shirtâ instead of turning to chatgpt to fluff it up.
I play games where the RP is time sensitive. If someone flounces up to me with a description taller than my vertical monitor full of chatgpt-isms, I ainât reading that shit. Got halfway through the scene once before we both realised she was buck naked.
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@Juniper Thatâs fair, I also roll my eyes and backflip out of characters when I see the chatGPT signifiers in the desc. Any time a physical quality âembodies the nature ofâ or âspeaks toâ a vague and unrelated personality trait? Bam.
I like a little fluff in descs. I like it in poses, too, even though I know it isnât good writing, strictly speaking. I also prefer not to have clothes in a desc and just pose them where appropriate in scenes. To me, these are preferences. Something doesnât have to be for me, but that doesnât mean I think it should be designed out of the hobby. Except the LLM stuff. That should be.
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@hellfrog I actually donât read character descriptions. Not to be insulting but more that it doesnât actually do anything to help me when I try to get a mental image of someone, I need an actual image. And for whatever reason, it only seems to apply to peopleâs faces. It might be some kind of internal blindness on my part, I know @imstillhere and I have spoken about this that has an actual word associated with it.
I donât know what Iâm doing. Poke at Seven Nations sevennations.aresmush.com port 2021
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@Testament Prosopagnosia! I have it as well and it can definitely be an embarrassing factor in my real life. Itâs also one reason I hate AI portraits, as I find them extremely hard to distinguish.
In terms of descs though (and I know, weâve talked about this) I donât think you need to know exactly what their face looks like. It doesnât matter. You need a vibe, some physical basics, and anything major unusual, and thatâs it, that will inform the impression of the character in the written form.
Tastes vary, but for me, I never need to know details like a roman nose or cupidâs bow lips.
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