Don’t forget we moved!
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Neitherlands
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In before people accuse @Warma-Sheen of being a secret alt account, just like the previous ‘oh, she is definitely X person’ without backing up the claim.
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@Warma-Sheen Some players take up more room than others. That’s something game runners have to contend with. But we’re not gonna sit here and pretend these two people share equal responsibility for their dynamic when one of them is actively signing into closed player accounts and posting logs while the other is voicing concern about that.
ETA: Are we NOT here for drama?
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@helvetica No, not saying they are equal. But I am saying there’s bad behavior on both sides, not just one.
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@Warma-Sheen Word. I view the majority of @Jenn’s behavior as provoked. I don’t know anything about that sexual assault narrative, but I do know that @Jenn isn’t the one who was slipping into my DMs to badmouth people like I knew them. @Jenn wasn’t the one rewriting the storyline decisions to single people out or going on 15-20 minute uninterrupted rants on public channels.
You say @Jenn took up a lot of the mental energy @inuki should have been spreading around the rest of the game? Thank FUCKING GOD.
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Double posting to say that I’ve definitely had my frustrations over the years with players who take up a lot of space in a game. But it usually comes from a place of excitement about the story, and there are ways to use or redirect that momentum. Plot does not have to be a zero-sum game.
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It doesn’t have to be, but sometimes it is hard when you see staff not being able to handle it well, or by the time they get to you they are spent. I think sometimes people focus on the wrong thing. Whether it’s “if only I had as much XP as that individual I too would be relevant/included more” or “if only that person was not on every fucking job and in every scene and opening up 15 a day, my stuff would be gotten to too” or somesuch.
The truth is it probably wouldn’t make one bit of a difference. And honestly, I would rather deal with the feelings of worry/being ignored/not included/ect. often than deal with a staffer who is mean or vindictive and has so little self control they vomit rants all over the channel.
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@inuki was a nightmare of a player who didn’t seem to actually read anything, made up entire narratives that didn’t exist, and sex-pested multiple people. To the point that I found out more people had been harassed by her.
@jenn was immediately cooperative and proactive, asked questions so she could understand things, and has no complaints to date against her.
The problem Inuki has isn’t that Jenn is a big, time-stealing problem-player.
The problem is that Jenn was playing a female PC.
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I didn’t know @Jenn from a stranger on the street until Neitherlands. But she included me. When things weren’t working out, she offered alternatives. I would go to bat for that player any time.
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My experience with Jenn, so far, is also that she does her best to be inclusive and help people as well.
Also, players excited for the stories and the game can, most of the time, be reigned in by telling them to give others a chance. Obviously, there are some who don’t and all but have a fit about being ‘left out’. On Atharia I’ve had/have some players who want to do everything and ‘win’ everything but have been reasonable when I tell them to hold back and/or support someone with their dice or RP should the person’s main thing be what is being used. I tell them along the lines of (adjusted to appropriate concepts or skills) ‘A socialite who might have bad dice due to new or character traits or the socialite isn’t the ‘best’ RPer about that sort of stuff. Sure, you might have better whatever but throw it behind the person’s idea/plan or suggest tweaks even if you know IC and/or OOC it could go bad. It is about letting them feel they matter and have support for their actions on the game.’ So far, I’ve not had issue with people /having/ to do everything and win at everything or being overly excited that couldn’t be resolved with a request to hold back and give others a chance.
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The fact that @Jenn continues to give the SA narrative, after I explicitly told her that wasn’t the case baffles me.
Here are receipts.
<PM> (to Sophia) Wizard says, “So… I’m noticing a bit of tension on your part. If you’re uncomfortable with the plot OOCly (for whatever reason), lemme know. We can just have it resolved as quickly as possible if that’s the case.”
<PM> (to Conrad[Web], Leto, Wizard) Sophia (sophie) says, “I am incredibly uncomfortable with this situation, particularly OOC’ly, but I’ve been doing my best to IC’ly roll with it, because I know you’ve told multiple people who have asked about things that it’s a piece of a huge plot you have planned, and that you don’t intend it to be quickly cured. You said as much to me when it happened, too. The way the bite itself went down was really non-consenty and rail-roaded. I was paged that there was no general access library research to be done, so I didn’t bother adding to your workload to try it. I invited whomever seemed IC’ly reasonable to maybe want to try helping, so that you could spread your plot plans around all of them. When I explained it was only a social scene, not an action scene… You went to someone else to get an invite anyway. Then you let Jack do the exact thing you’d told me I couldn’t accomplish. Research is literally Sophia’s only talent. I feel as if I’m being used as a walking and talking NPC in your plot, not a character. But I’m really trying as hard as I’m able to balance that with the knowledge that you’re in week one of Alpha, and this is a huge learning curve, and you’re well past capacity. So I’m doing my best to make this as easy on you as I can manage. But I feel as if I’m failing to do that at every turn.”
<PM> (to Wizard) Sophia (sophie) says, “And. Fuck. This is why I need to page name=blah and not default page blah. I am so, so sorry.”
<PM> (to Sophia) Wizard says, “How was it nonconsnety and railroady. There were two zombie bite rolls. You failed the first and beat the second. Hence you only got one bite. Even the decision of who was bitten was randomized. I gave you all numbers and roll dice to see who would get bit.”
<PM> (to Conrad[Web], Leto, Sophia) Wizard says, “For full transparency, I only paged Sophia asking if she was uncomfortable. But since she decided to share with y’all, here was my response to the earlier page: How was it nonconsnety and railroady. There were two zombie bite rolls. You failed the first and beat the second. Hence you only got one bite. Even the decision of who was bitten was randomized. I gave you all numbers and roll dice to see who would get bit.”"
<PM> (to Wizard) Sophia (sophie) says, “I have a terrible habit of hitting page and forgetting to switch its aim. I have apologized for that already. I’ve also made sure that what I’m saying from here is NOT going elsewhere. Again. Sorry.”
<PM> (to Sophia) Wizard says, “The reason I asked to see what you were doing is because I didn’t want OTHERS to just say they were to by pass wards etc at the school. As I explained to you (and only you prior), if you’re trying to bypass the wards it will need to be an STed scene. I know that Leto and Conrad can get… enthusiastic about things, so that is why I asked to be there.”
<PM> (to Conrad[Web], Sophia, Wizard) Leto says, “Transparency appreciated. Just my two cents addendum, from what I can tell, communication needed improvement from everyone involved (from consent to prefs to storytelling habits) so everyone involved knew what they were getting into (I.e. the curse) and the planned stories you had thought for it to those bitten, just so folks were in the loop. Granted, it’s a very fresh game and we’re all still learning to coexist with each other.
Hence why the RPprefs announcement was a really wise move. And the sharing felt like a mav rather than something intentional. Thems my two (and maybe 1/2) cents Nobody’s fault, happens everywhere”
<PM> (to Sophia) Wizard says, “You are not an NPC in this plot. You’re currently the main focus. IF not people wouldn’t have asked me to go out of my way to do things like find a cursebreaker etc. In all honesty, it was never my intention for it to get this big. Your zombie bite was supposed to be a warning of just how powerful the enemies were. However, when you involved almost half the MU* in your IC problems, I had to expand the scope so they wouldn’t potentially feel like it was a waste of their time, so I then went and developed the cursebreaknig stuff, Uncle Edgar, other NPCs, and introduced the city of Satyrine way ahead of schedule.”
<PM> (to Sophia) Wizard says, “So no, this has actually given me a lot more to do than originally planned, so I gave others a piece that they could pursue. If you feel that was unfair, I’m sorry on my end for that.”
<Questions, Healing> Luka (@Scar) has connected.
<PM> (to Wizard) Sophia (sophie) says, “First. There was an announcement that Sophia was throwing a party, without consulting me to see if there was interest in Sophia throwing a party. Second, it was spoken about as if it were a social thing, not a combat thing. Third, when it WAS clearly a combat thing, I intentionally kept my character over a full city block away from the zombies, while others went straight in. Fourth, despite any of our defenses or magic needing time to prep, the zombies (and their necromancer) managed to cover that entire distance as well as attack all in one singular round. Fifth, we all had the same combat rolls. The zombies all passed their attacks. All of us passed our athletics. Everyone else’s rolls counted to avoid things. Mine did not. There was not reason or explanation for that whatsover. Sixth, I was cursed some pretty awful things. Seventh, I went to Calliope first, and she didn’t show interest in finding out what had happened or why Sophia ran into her dad, despite three times trying to bring that up. To the point that Zayden even called it out IC’ly. Eighth, you got upset when Sophia’s efforts to involve others in this plot, to spread story for your game and the plot you kept telling me and everyone else was too big to manage alone, because I didn’t ask for a social scene that hadn’t needed anyone to roll any skills, much less magic, to be micro-managed. Ninth, you went behind my back to someone else to get into it anyway. Tenth, you then paged that I wasn’t thinking big enough in regards to the curse. Go worse. Despite your bbpost that you wouldn’t dabble in SA, it was STRONGLY implied. Eleventh, well. Here we all are. Inviting you to please join, whenever you are able, because we’re all just trying to end Sophia’s misery without ending your plot. And all that’s happened since is hearing that apparently the ways we’ve offered that invite were not sufficient. I’m at a genuine loss about what to do from here. I’m not trying to complicate things, or make your life harder. But I don’t know what more I can offer to avoid that.”
<PM> (to Sophia) Wizard says, “Calliope is my PC. I know /everything/ behind the scenes, and it is difficult to sometimes separate what I know as a storyteller and what my character knows. I did not want to potentially break that barrier, which is why Calliope was not involved ICly.”
<PM> (to Sophia) Wizard says, “With regards to the party, that is mea culpa. I figured a party would be an open scene and generally be open to the public, since, ICly, the physical kids cottage is known for its parties across campus.”
<PM> (to Sophia) Wizard says, “With regards to the zombies. I am literally looking at the log. You did NOT pass your athletics check to dodge. In fact you were the only failure.”
<PM> (to Wizard) Sophia (sophie) says, “The party? The party in Manhattan, at Sophia’s home, about which Sophia didn’t even know would be happening?”
<PM> (to Wizard) Sophia (sophie) says, “I’m OK that you don’t want Callie involved. I’m not ok with being paged that I hurt your feelings by not inviting her, when you’d made it clear you didn’t want Callie involved.”
<PM> (to Wizard) Sophia (sophie) says, “You seem to be making a LOT of decisions on the fly, and then expecting everyone else to live with those consequences, regardless of it it’s the best choice or not.”
<PM> (to Sophia) Wizard says, “It didn’t hurt my feelings OOCly. Just for clarification.”
<PM> (to Sophia) Wizard says, “I was saying it cause it probably hurt Calliope’s feelings ICly. But that’s neither here nor there. It’s not really important as it doesn’t affect things in the least imho”
<PM> (to Wizard) Sophia (sophie) says, “You are not correct. <FS3> Sophia rolls Athletics: Success (8 3 3 2)”
<PM> (to Sophia) Wizard says, “But yes, I do things on the fly. A lot. That’s how I am as a storyteller. I roll with the punches and am like, oh that might be interesting to do.”
<PM> (to Sophia) Wizard says, “If I were to be like: This is preplanned and this is how it happens, then I would be railroady. But I look at what’s going on, and my first thought is: What would be really cool here right now?”
<PM> (to Sophia) Wizard says, “Look, I had no idea that telling you that your character would suffer nightmares that ended up producing bruises (basically cribbing Freddy Krueger) would be such a horrible thing. I thought it was kinda neat from a perspective of what the villains could do. So here’s what I’ll propose. You don’t need me to ST your dream scene. Just do what you wanna do with Leto and Conrad. They go in, clear you or take the curse upon themselves, and we move forward.”
<PM> (to Sophia) Wizard says, “Also, why would I tell you that I’m planning things out? Why would I also need to OOC ask for your permission to tell a story?”
<PM> (to Sophia) Wizard says, “I will note that NOTHING happened to Sophia’s home or parents. The zombie attack happened ON THE WAY. I did it as a means to introduce one of the villains that y’all will have.”
<PM> (to Wizard) Sophia (sophie) says, “Because stories need parties to consent to being told in them or not. And you can say all you want that you didn’t know it would be horrible. But I have the receipts. I kept copies so I would remember what was and wasn’t expected of Sophia IC’ly. You went SUPER over-board.”
<PM> (to Sophia) Wizard says, “I am not the type of ST to prediscuss this is what I plan to do to your character in a plot. To me, that removes the element or surprise/discovery/wonder/horror that I wish to illicit in the storytelling. It comes from, like I said in my latest announcement, me being a WoD player for so long.”
<PM> (to Wizard) Sophia (sophie) says, “On the way to a party that you didn’t ask if I would have wanted to host or not. On the way to a concert you didn’t ask Conrad if he wanted to pay for or not.”
<PM> (to Sophia) Wizard says, “Again, all this comes from my main experience as a WoD player and storyteller. We never asked, nor did we expect to be asked as players. I think the expectations are different. There was never a policy that said explicitly we are a consent or a nonconsent game. For that I take full responsibility.”
<PM> (to Sophia) Wizard says, “So like I said, do what you want with Leto and Conrad. Finish and conclude your story your way.”
<PM> (to Wizard) Sophia (sophie) says, “If you are making choices about what a character will or won’t do, and think that as a story-teller that’s cool to just use them how you wish without checking… That’s exactly what I mean by Sophia feels like a walking and talking NPC, not my own to make choices with. Sophia doesn’t party. She drinks with Conrad. She wouldn’t have hosted a pre-game. He lives right next door. IF he’d been in for that plot, he could have hosted the party. But you didn’t seem to think it mattered what either of us would or wouldn’t have done.”
<PM> (to Conrad[Web], Leto, Sophia, Sunset[Web]) Wizard says, “You four or howmany you would like are free to conclude Sophia’s curse story in whatever way she is comfortable with. I come from a WoD background as a player and storyteller. I am used to bad shit happening without consent of players. Sophia comes from a different experience. So you finish the story. I will continue with the other parts that people have stumbled upon in other ways. Thanks.”
<PM> (to Sophia) Wizard says, “I’ve never had to do that on WoD before. Like I said, it’s a different style. It’s something I’m not used to doing, nor is it is something that I’m used to on the receiving end. So, for this, I’ll call it a wash, you guys go about doing things your way and i’ll be more cognizant of yours and Conrad’s style from now on.”I’m still a terrible person, yada yada. But as someone who has been through an SA IRL, I would NEVER EVER EVER put someone through an SA story. Jesus f christ.
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@helvetica said in Neitherlands:
@Warma-Sheen Word. I view the majority of @Jenn’s behavior as provoked. I don’t know anything about that sexual assault narrative, but I do know that @Jenn isn’t the one who was slipping into my DMs to badmouth people like I knew them. @Jenn wasn’t the one rewriting the storyline decisions to single people out or going on 15-20 minute uninterrupted rants on public channels.
That’s interesting. See, I saw it the exact opposite. Just from the logs @Jenn posted above, I see @inuki trying to integrate her into the story and then when it doesn’t go how she wants it, spiraling out into more and more aggressive behavior until @inuki pulls away and steps back from dealing with her, but @Jenn continuing to push for @inuki to ST on her story, which is odd because @Jenn was already given permission to close it out however she’d like.
From my own experience there, it was similar. I actually liked Sophia and defended her player against some of the criticisms, even though they were accurate. But she kept pushing at @inuki over and over again until @inuki let the frustration get the better of her and come down with heavy handed rulings on things to just be done with it, or ranting on channel as a response to something @Jenn had done.
So it is an interesting matter of perspective. Chicken/egg. The fact that @inuki has not been liked in the past, definitely colors it. I never had an issue with her (and no, I’ve never TSed her) in other games, so I see it from a different angle in terms of where it started.
Its probably a mixture of both, with both sides feeding each other until something blew up. But for the record, I do think the responsibility was on @inuki to be more levelheaded as the headstaff and not get goaded. She should have removed @Jenn from the game earlier if she thought she was a detriment, which she considered, but declined to do because @Jenn hadn’t really done anything ban-worthy. She was just a problem (which goes into a full other discussion on when is it okay to ban someone, which has been discussed on previous threads).
My point though is that Sophia’s player was not at all blameless and was part of the problem.
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All I got from that log is ‘WoD is no consent on anything so my deciding Sophia is throwing a party is okay because it is to introduce the big bads. I don’t need to give any details because SURPRISE stuff!’
WoD has a lot about secrecy and taking away freedoms on an IC level but, on every WoD game I’ve tried, it has never been forced on someone in the sort of way they weren’t even asked if they would do a thing that could end up with plot stuff.
I’m all for /some/ stuff happening without the say so of the player but you don’t need to completely hide stuff from the player. There is ‘Would you be okay with doing Y thing so I can do some plot things that might not be light?’ You’re not giving them details, you’re not taking the surprise away. You’re letting them do what their character would do. /ASKING/ Sophia if she could throw a party is not ‘giving away the plot’. It is allowing you and her to work out what would have made sense for Sophia to do and not take her autonomy away. It’s not ‘fun’ if you force someone into doing a thing you want done so you can make your plot go.
To be fair, I’m transparent about all STing I do. Like, what I do is well known even if the details of how people get to the plot/scene end are not. I don’t plan my scenes beyond ‘X needs to be the result and everyone involved should have a moment to shine.’ With the occasional ‘You need to fail X thing so a certain aspect of this story can become apparent.’ peppered in.
PS. I am also not big on the big secrecy of stuff on an OOC level. I would rather know at least the very basics of an intended story being told (X thing is what is involved in Y plot) so that I am not putting my character who can’t swim in the middle of the ocean without a boat or life jacket.
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@Warma-Sheen Yo, I’m comfortable with us having different takes on this.
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Even when I staffed and ran for WoD I would still check to make sure I was not triggering folks. Both LARP MUSH and PNP. I have been running WoD since 1997 or so.
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I don’t know either of these people but I read through the mass of logs that have been posted over this thread – from both parties, now – and I sure know who comes off worse.
By, uh. A lot.
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@Warma-Sheen what is your point. Are you insinuating that only 100 percent awful people can do bad things?
Or only 100 percent blameless people can be justified in feeling skeeved out. And if they’re not pure as the new falling snow they should shut up because “both people aren’t perfect.”
That’s so gross.
I’m not sure why the hell inuki thinks that log makes her look better. It doesn’t. It doesn’t even make jenn look particularly bad just they were annoyed with each other and inunki did a piss poor communication job from the start. Which she acknowledges without taking responsibility by saying she just is spontaneous.
Ugh. I love the back in my day nobody asked permission on WoD so thats how I totally roll on this 2023 non wod game and expect you to be grateful.
Why am I even reading this. Its all the depressing as fuck things about mu.
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Cool. Since you’re here, @inuki, and being so transparent - can we talk about why you lied about why you got banned?
https://brandmuday.mythicus.net/post/16221
Since you’re so very honest and never lie or tell people it was because you flirted with the wrong person and not because you were being gross and racist.
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@mietze said in Neitherlands:
Ugh. I love the back in my day nobody asked permission on WoD so thats how I totally roll on this 2023 non wod game and expect you to ge grateful.
The strange thing about this to me is that, yeah, I understand some games have had an “ST won’t ask permission to do things TO your character” but the example in the conversation was such a weird “ST decides what your character is doing” and that is – very different? Was THAT normal in old WoD games? Because that’s wild.
Also re: the sexual assault thing going around, I read the old logs that had Inuki first 1) telling Jenn that she wasn’t RPing these dreams at all horribly enough, that they needed to be MAXIMUM HORRIBLE, and then 2) getting MAD that Jenn misunderstood what was meant.
(IIRC I actually proceeded to go to Neitherlands site to see if they had any posted policy about sexual assault in RP and not only did they not have any policy about it, I couldn’t find policy files at all? I can find restricted concepts in the CG guide, but not – actual written files about how to exist on a game. Which is also wild.)
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