What is a MUSH?

Polk

Particularly with the Traditions side. When you’re talking late 19th century all my favorite kinds of Traditions mages are still in the Order of Reason/Technocratic Union.

Faraday

@Polk said in What is a MUSH?:

@Darren That’s a really old post.

Now there’s this:

https://www.evennia.com/docs/latest/Components/FuncParser.html?highlight=parse

The function parser really isn’t the same thing as softcode. It’s cool, don’t get me wrong, but–unless I’m really missing something; please correct me if I’m mistaken–you can’t build out an entire +combat system with persistent commands and data storage just using inline function evaluations like you can with softcode.

I’m not saying you can’t layer a scripting language (like softcode, or Lua, or whatever) on top of Evennia (or Ares for that matter). But it’s not built-in and would IMHO take an immense amount of work to achieve parity with MU softcode. If softcode is really a thing you need for your game, you’re probably better off just using a platform that has it (Rhost, Tiny, Penn, etc.).

ETA: I realize we’re talking about Evennia, but in case anyone cares here’s an article about why Ares doesn’t have softcode either.

Jennkryst

@Polk said in What is a MUSH?:

As for Mummy? You can probably build one with the Gods & Monsters rule set. Perhaps tied to House Shaea.

For X20, the Mummy rules can be found on one whole page of that one Vampire book; it amounts to 'they can learn any Thaumaturgy or Necromancy discipline or ritual without a teacher, instead of Vitae they have Sekhem, the pool is equal to their Humanity rating (Or Path of Typhon rating, if ebil mummies), and then a couple other things.

And I know el zilcho about Changeling. I’m opening this Mage-only, but if it works out I will probably break down and throw in Werewolf. There is that Old West Werewolf book whose name I forget.

Just pretendy-fun-time and nom nom nom creativity. GOOD NEWS! Since this is before the moon landing, there are no Arcadian Sidhe! Really, wild west would probably be a lot more Gallain, so native kiths that use Gnosis instead of Glamour, even, but maybe an influx of Kithain. I dunno.

Polk

@Faraday See, I don’t care about coding entire game systems in softcode.

I’m trying to bring softcode to its roots, which is for lighter duty tasks than that.

In the old school MUSH engines you were supposed to be coding expansive systems in C, for crying out loud.

Everything we do these days with dozens of nested functions of one liner softcode, including your own epic and beloved FS3, is pushing the system far beyond its ever expected limits.

Heck back then it would have been too slow on the by modern standards tiny, slow, low-memory, multi-user systems MUSHes were running on.

So we may be talking past each other here. I don’t see softcode as something to build an entire stat system in. I see it as something for simple, relatively uncomplicated tasks, within a safety sandbox so players can use it.

That’s the key. I want softcode for PLAYERS. Not for game CREATORS.

Darren

@Faraday You are correct, the function parser isn’t currently up to the task of replicating the functionality of softcode, but it could be, with a bit of work. Pretty much everything is in place already, you’d just have to implement a lot of functions and figure out how you’re going to tie it into the rest of the game. Again, the end result is going to look more like MPI rather than softcode.

By default, the funcparser is disabled. When enabled, func calls in output are processed. You can also call it manually, which is what I do for my messages (@SUCCESS, etc). I also use it for room descriptions for dynamic formatting and data generation. This gives me some of the functionality of softcode without having too much overhead. I haven’t thought too much about how you might tie in into the rest of the game to give true softcode functionality. I’m sure it’s possible to do.

TBH I really don’t feel the need for softcode at all (I can say the same about Ares).

STD

@Polk said in What is a MUSH?:

I see it as something for simple, relatively uncomplicated tasks, within a safety sandbox so players can use it.

That’s the key. I want softcode for PLAYERS. Not for game CREATORS.

I’m not sure what tasks players would need solved that are uncomplicated. Could you give an example of what you have in mind? Since as far as I know, any routine tasks that a player would be interested in (multi descing, handling XP spends) would either be too complex or already handled.

Polk

@STD See I’m miscommunicating something here. Things like XP are coded game systems.

A player might do something like desc a house.

Roz

@Polk said in What is a MUSH?:

@STD See I’m miscommunicating something here. Things like XP are coded game systems.

A player might do something like desc a house.

I mean, that’s not really player softcode, either? I think every MU* I’ve been on have had game systems for players to be able to desc their stuff.

Pavel

@Polk said in What is a MUSH?:

Things like XP are coded game systems.

True, but they’re also traditionally softcode.

Whereas things like

@Polk said in What is a MUSH?:

desc a house.

are traditionally hardcode. (Yes, some places have it as softcode, but @desc is hardcode and more usual).

So what you’re really thinking of is having more tools available to players that many places have often left in the hands of coders or staff?

Roz

I can understand the delineation between gamewide code and player code here – for systems like Ares and Evennia, all the game-wide code ends up as hardcode. So I understand it more as the ‘systems installed by staff that are accessible to the whole game’ vs ‘code written by players just accessible on their own player bit’ as the delineation we’re doing here. But surely descing builds is going to be a gamewide system, not something a player would need their own custom code for. So I’m also curious what sort of player code you’re imagining.

Pavel

@Roz said in What is a MUSH?:

I can understand the delineation between gamewide code and system code here

Yeah, the hardcode/softcode delineation doesn’t make much sense here.

Roz

@Pavel said in What is a MUSH?:

@Roz said in What is a MUSH?:

I can understand the delineation between gamewide code and system code here

Yeah, the hardcode/softcode delineation doesn’t make much sense here.

Lol thank you for bringing my attention to the fact that I wrote the WRONG WORD there. I meant gamewide code vs player code.

mietze

I never paid attention because I don’t code and am not a technical person. But I do remember problems on ancient wod games where players would set code on themselves that would cause issues like lag or were exploits.

I always assumed that was the reason why a lot of games stopped letting people custom stuff. I don’t know if lag is a problem now though. This was in the days of dial up internet.

Faraday

@Pavel said in What is a MUSH?:

Yeah, the hardcode/softcode delineation doesn’t make much sense here.
@Roz said in What is a MUSH?:

Lol thank you for bringing my attention to the fact that I wrote the WRONG WORD there. I meant gamewide code vs player code.

Yeah I don’t want to nitpick wording, but I think it’s an important distinction because “hardcode” and “softcode” have very heavy connotations in traditional MU circles. The idea that “hardcode” is this heavyweight thing that can’t easily be changed (and generally shouldn’t be messed with in most cases) and that “softcode” is where you put your game-specific commands like sheets and multi-descers.

None of that applies to platforms like Evennia and Ares, which is why neither use those terms. Their code is server-side (like traditional hardcode) but flexible and game-specific (like traditional softcode).

So when Ares/Evennia devs say “you don’t need softcode” that doesn’t mean there are no multidescers, sheets, or commands to describe rooms. It just means those things are coded as server-side game code not coded-thru-MU-client game/player code.

@mietze said in What is a MUSH?:

I always assumed that was the reason why a lot of games stopped letting people custom stuff. I don’t know if lag is a problem now though. This was in the days of dial up internet.

The main issue is actually security. Unless you have things meticulously locked down, it’s very easy for malicious players to exploit coded systems when you let them write their own code. This is doubly true in Evennia and Ares due to the underpinning languages (Python/Ruby).

It’s so easy to shoot yourself in the foot and compromise your game (or even your entire server) if you don’t have things set up right. And for what? So someone can code their own Falcon Controller or use a different syntax for the multi-descer instead of the built-in one? It’s just not a good tradeoff IMHO.

Polk

@Pavel I don’t think I agree with that. The most natural way softcode is useful is to [run code()] in a desc.

But we’ll see. All of this is last on my list of features anyway.

Darren

@Polk said in What is a MUSH?:

@Pavel I don’t think I agree with that. The most natural way softcode is useful is to [run code()] in a desc.

But we’ll see. All of this is last on my list of features anyway.

That is what I do with my Evennia game core, I process descs through the funcparser. This allows me to pull in data and do formatting just like you would do with softcode on MUSH, only without the overhead and security issues.

Ex:

    def get_desc(self, looker=None):

        desc = self.db.desc or ''
        if not desc:
            return ''
        parser = FuncParser(dict(FUNCPARSER_CALLABLES, **LOCAL_FUNCPARSER_CALLABLES))
        parsed_string = parser.parse(desc,
            raise_errors=False,
            escape=False,
            strip=False,
            return_str=True
        )

        return parsed_string

Faraday

@Polk said in What is a MUSH?:

@Pavel I don’t think I agree with that. The most natural way softcode is useful is to [run code()] in a desc.

You’re approaching a problem (wanting to put “code” into descs) with a particular solution already in mind (softcode). But that solution has a lot of baggage and risks.

If you take a step back and ask why you want to put code into descs, you might find that the uses are far narrower than you imagine and can be solved in different ways.

For example, Ares doesn’t have placeholder objects, but mostly people use those for things like rings and signs. Instead it offers a robust details system that can add those kinds of descs to rooms and players with a simple command. Most of the code people put into room descs is to adjust for time of day and such. Ares does that via the “vista” commands.

Now maybe your game’s needs are unique and you really do need softcode. Or maybe you just want to do it for the fun / technical challenge. In that case go for it.

All I’m saying is that the plethora of games running on Evennia and Ares without softcode challenges the assumption that softcode is essential for MUs.

somasatori

How important is the character description anymore? I am assuming you will have a website with character details given the web injection requirements for sheet/notes/etc. (and just how Evennia works). Player trends have been going in the direction of looking at wiki pages/personal pages for an idea of what a character looks like for over a decade now.

On the anecdotal side, lately what I’ve usually seen are people posing their outfit of the day in their opening pose.

I use multidescers myself, so no shade towards writing static descriptions, but it seems to be less of a trend to write many static descriptions. Although you said that you don’t have any stated timeline for opening, it’s still best not to add undue additional work unless, like Faraday said, you really want to go for the fun / technical challenge.

Pavel

@somasatori said in What is a MUSH?:

How important is the character description anymore?

I can tolerate a lot of evolutionary bullshit that comes with changing times, but if we’re doing away with reading and writing in a text-based game, that’s where I draw the line.

somasatori

My point was aimed at the cost/benefit of coding up a multidescer so people can have several clothing descriptions pre-loaded versus them just writing ‘today so and so is wearing blah blah’ in a pose, not to remove descs entirely.

Don’t forget we moved!

https://brandmu.day/

What is a MUSH?