The 3-Month Players
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@Tapewyrm said in The 3-Month Players:
Perhaps that same balance of periodic Plot scenes with character-driven play in between could be a winning combination. I shall try.
To make a metaphor out of it, sort of, how I view it is thus: John Wick cares about his wife, and his dog. That character development, that relationship/emotion-driven play gives us much more investment and interest in the plot-driven stuff of the rest of the film than if it was just a regular"retired killer comes out of retirement for one. more. job." So the social RP isn’t just acceptable, it’s required to make the plot RP have any kind of investment.
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@Tapewyrm said in The 3-Month Players:
It’s more in this case that unless someone runs something, there swiftly becomes no RP at all, because the more random RP fizzles out. Every time.
I have never not observed this to happen, although I’ll concede I have remained in a certain gaming niche for 25 years and only rarely explored outside of it, so of course ymmv.
I won’t dispute your experience, but it is different than mine. On games that I’ve run, it is usually the “primarily social” RPers who are the last ones still lingering when I turn the lights off. In fact, several times they’ve spun off to other games to keep their personal stories going or KEPT PLAYING on a sandbox even after the game ended.
Don’t get me wrong - I think a majority of MU players DO expect to be entertained, and will get bored if the entertainment dries up or does not meet their expectations. I’m just challenging the assertion that this is some kind of universal requirement.
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@Faraday And I can appreciate that. In many ways I’m sheltered, since I’ve stuck on mostly the same place for decades, so I’m not trying to lay down some universal principles. In fact I come in search of wisdom from the wider MU verse.
See, the game I play on is still running, and has been since 1991, although from around 2013 it’s been pretty much dead, aside from my recent efforts to revive it. But the way the game worked was that there were essentially a dozen or more mini-games within the whole; it’s set in Middle-earth so each realm had their own sphere, or +culture as we called them (e.g. Gondor, the Shire, Isengard, Lothlorien), which had its own staff, grid, local theme and was largely autonomous.
So my own experience is based on watching the rise and fall of various ‘games’ within that, and getting the chance to try my own as local staff. If I may say so myself, I was typically rather successful in my projects, because I had learned from great staffers around and above me, and once upon a time I waded into the depths of WORA to discover how large and varied the MU verse was, and took some valuable insights with me back which served me well. It’s from that vantage that I keep seeing everything fizzle whenever someone stops providing the fun for others.
So, I guess, I’m back.
My problem isn’t getting things going. I’m always good at that, and while I’m doing it, everyone involved seems to have fun. My problem is that I’m always doing this largely by myself, and what I want most, desperately sometimes, is some help to avoid burnout (and is the reason I left in the end around 2012). Someone to help shoulder the load of driving things, so that the more social (or simply unplanned) RP can also take place and have a contextual background to it to inspire scenes.
However, I have found great difficulty over the years, and especially since a certain conventional wisdom set in for the other people in staffing positions that random/social RP is better than plots, in getting those players to even understand where I am coming from, let alone actually find a way we can cooperate and make everyone happy. Because I perceive that my way keeps working, and the other way keeps fizzling, I can’t help but feel they’re being selfish and counter-productive, and I know that’s not fair to feel that way, but I see no end to the cycle.
That’s why I really wanted to hear Raistlin’s thoughts, because I’m not trying to blame other people for their preferences, or say they’re Wrong. I want to be able to reach, understand, and adequately staff for people, without clashing over this difference in preferences. There’s plenty of people for me to work with, like you say the social RPers who will be there forever but who lurk because there’s nothing really to join in with, but challenging the conventional wisdom is hard, and unless I do it, honestly things just don’t happen. For anyone, and that makes me sad, because as far as I am concerned we could all be having so much fun. I just want our game back, y’know?
Anyhow, not trying to hijack this thread for my own game. Just seeking feedback.
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@Pavel said in The 3-Month Players:
To make a metaphor out of it, sort of, how I view it is thus: John Wick cares about his wife, and his dog. That character development, that relationship/emotion-driven play gives us much more investment and interest in the plot-driven stuff of the rest of the film than if it was just a regular"retired killer comes out of retirement for one. more. job." So the social RP isn’t just acceptable, it’s required to make the plot RP have any kind of investment.
I don’t know if I agree with that. At least as it has been put into a metaphor.
I see it more like this: If John Wick had simply gone to the gas station that day, and all that happened is he paid for his gas and went home, then there is no movie series at all. Something had to happen for there to be a story, and what happened was John Wick was assaulted by Theon Greyjoy and then his dog was killed.
I understand that his emotional investment in that is what makes it matter and resonate with the audience/players, but I don’t see that as something born of social RP. That’s a detail in his Bio.
I think the social RP comes in when players then either a) explore it with John Wick ICly, b) talk about it with others as IC news, or c) don’t care at all that it happened but are just stoked there are now active players to socially RP with because something happened.
But without the Event, what does the social RP by itself offer in terms of (other/new) player investment? If John Wick’s love for his wife and dog is the social RP, in the metaphor, then what story is being told if the wife never dies or if John is never attacked by the Russians? I’m not seeing much for anyone to come get involved with, and grow activity from.
Serious question, not just trying to contradict you.
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@Faraday said in The 3-Month Players:
te core players)There are plenty of successful TV shows that avoid the Game of Thrones style of knocking off main characters left and right.
There is no one-size-fits-all game.
Yet, few shows were as successful or as well known as GoT. The stories where your favorite characters might be lost at any moment are the ones people become most invested in. Investment is what we are looking for.
It’s like playing a video game where you only get one life and then you have to start all over. You will be very careful in that video game to try to stay alive with your one life but if you have three lives he will be less careful and less invested. If you have infinite lives and lose nothing when you die the game becomes less fun because you can just rush headlong in without needing to think or plan.
Knowing that death doesn’t matter or that you are not going to die unless you choose to means you will invest less energy and effort into your character. It’s less challenging if you aren’t afraid of death.
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@RedRocket said in The 3-Month Players:
@Faraday said in The 3-Month Players:
te core players)There are plenty of successful TV shows that avoid the Game of Thrones style of knocking off main characters left and right.
There is no one-size-fits-all game.
Yet, few shows were as successful or as well known as GoT. The stories where your favorite characters might be lost at any moment are the ones people become most invested in. Investment is what we are looking for.
It’s like playing a video game where you only get one life and then you have to start all over. You will be very careful in that video game to try to stay alive with your one life but if you have three lives he will be less careful and less invested. If you have infinite lives and lose nothing when you die the game becomes less fun because you can just rush headlong in without needing to think or plan.
Knowing that death doesn’t matter or that you are not going to die unless you choose to means you will invest less energy and effort into your character. It’s less challenging if you aren’t afraid of death.
Game of Thrones’ willingness to kill its characters helps to set the overall tone of the piece, but people don’t watch a show just because they’re scared of characters dying; they watch a show because the show is interesting and engaging to them on some level. There are plenty of hugely successful pieces of media that had little to no threat of repeated character death.
Playing video games is also an entirely different experience from watching film or roleplaying a game. These are simply not the same things.
Some people will be more engaged in a MU* where the threat of character death is prominent. Others will hate it. It’s a really weird generality to try and make universal. For many people, knowing that your character could die at any moment will mean they’ll invest less in their character; after all, what’s the point if they can lose all that effort in a moment’s whim?
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@Roz said in The 3-Month Players:
For many people, knowing that your character could die at any moment will mean they’ll invest less in their character; after all, what’s the point if they can lose all that effort in a moment’s whim?
That’s why every DM faction had a safe zone. You could log in every day and play all day long in the forest or the reclaimed suburban sprawl next to Forest and never leave the protection of the werewolf zone.
If you wanted to be a boring person who stays home and does laundry while occasionally banging your werewolf boyfriend in his crinos form you were able to do that.
That’s why I’m saying Dark Metal was a very well designed game. It had something for every kind of player. Modern games lack that variety. The range of danger that you could be in at any moment is much more limited and more vaguely defined.
Most games don’t have a safe zone for their factions that is larger than one building or a few rooms deep in an isolated location.
One of the things that Dark Metal did properly was creating an entire distinct environment for each faction that you could play in and never run out of things to do ICly.
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@Pavel said in The 3-Month Players:
@KarmaBum The same thing we RP every night! Sex and bar-related things!
The kind of people who log in to a world of darkness game just to sit in a bar and make small talk are baffling to me.
Just go join a discord or a forum.
The same thing is true of people who hang out in bars just to hook up for TS. Why are you on a roleplay game with a complicated combat and stat system when you could just go to one of many games where you can literally be anything and bang anything you can imagine.
Both of these kinds of players seem to be achieving their goal only with many extra steps getting in the way.
I can’t imagine it’s very satisfying having to work for hours to set up a happy conclusion to your encounters because of the fact you’re playing the roleplay game instead of a game or chat room that is intended for the exact goal you are striving for and allows you to get directly to the point.
I think my question would be, why are you making it harder on yourself when there are much better options?
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@RedRocket said in The 3-Month Players:
@Roz said in The 3-Month Players:
For many people, knowing that your character could die at any moment will mean they’ll invest less in their character; after all, what’s the point if they can lose all that effort in a moment’s whim?
That’s why every DM faction had a safe zone. You could log in every day and play all day long in the forest or the reclaimed suburban sprawl next to Forest and never leave the protection of the werewolf zone.
If you wanted to be a boring person who stays home and does laundry while occasionally banging your werewolf boyfriend in his crinos form you were able to do that.
That’s why I’m saying Dark Metal was a very well designed game. It had something for every kind of player. Modern games lack that variety. The range of danger that you could be in at any moment is much more limited and more vaguely defined.
Most games don’t have a safe zone for their factions that is larger than one building or a few rooms deep in an isolated location.
One of the things that Dark Metal did properly was creating an entire distinct environment for each faction that you could play in and never run out of things to do ICly.
Lol these goalposts are moving like crazy. I wasn’t commenting on Dark Metal, which I have zero knowledge of. I was commenting on the broad generalizations of “every RPer responds to this situation in the exact same way and values the exact same things” that were in the specific post I responded to.
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@RedRocket said in The 3-Month Players:
The kind of people who log in to a world of darkness game just to sit in a bar and make small talk are baffling to me.
Just go join a discord or a forum.
The same thing is true of people who hang out in bars just to hook up for TS. Why are you on a roleplay game with a complicated combat and stat system when you could just go to one of many games where you can literally be anything and bang anything you can imagine.
If they’re having fun and not harming anyone, is that a problem?
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@Jumpscare
Yes, they are kind of a problem. It’s like if everybody gathered for a soccer game but several other players decided that instead of playing soccer they were going to fly kites.Sure, they aren’t actively hurting anything by standing in the middle of the field flying kites while people try to play soccer around them but it’s very rude and a waste of everyone’s time who came to see a soccer match.
It goes back to the idea that actions should have consequences and events should have a lingering effect on the story. If you’re just there to sit in a bar and chat like a chat bot with no intentions of ever become involved in anything deeper or more complicated than smacking your imaginary meat bits together, you are purposefully wasting people’s time and offering nothing in return.
Limiting your RP to pointless bar chatter or one-night stands for your own gratification is selfish and bad for the life of the game.
I thank you it’s a matter of playing a game to build a story with someone else versus being in a game for other people to entertain you.
If your RP is so limited that you won’t leave the bar or engage in anything deeper than a vagina, then you’re not there to forge a cooperative story. You are there to have people cater to your desires until you get your fix of attention and log off. It’s practically narcissistic.
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@Tapewyrm said in The 3-Month Players:
Serious question, not just trying to contradict you.
I mean, you’re not contradicting me because you’re not commenting on my actual point. Ignore the metaphor and focus on the actual point I said:
@Pavel said in The 3-Month Players:
So the social RP isn’t just acceptable, it’s required to make the plot RP have any kind of investment.
There needs to be both.
I’ll use another metaphor. If all you do is Event RP, Plot RP, or whatever you’re calling Not-Social-RP, then you’re playing the first 15 minutes of Saving Private Ryan over and over and over again. The only character information you get being the how not the why.
Event RP tells you how characters are, social RP gives a chance to explain why.
ETA: Ultimately, there’s no one size fits all approach to this. I certainly don’t want to play on any game that @RedRocket is describing, nor do I want to play on Cosy Safe Friends Time MU. So what I believe to be important isn’t going to be a perfect fit for what anyone else is going to believe.
That’s why we had games like Dark Metal, but also games like Shang, or games like Firan, or games like What We Do In The Shadows of Vienna By Night, or whatever the heck else.
He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
BE AN ADULT -
I would argue that games need “stakes” for investment, and a game that doesn’t have a way to keep tension and suspense is at risk for stagnation.
However, character death and the risk thereof is only one kind of stake. One that will appeal to a specific subset of the gaming population but not everyone. More, I suspect it’s a stake that has fallen out of style for a reason. What was appealing when the playerbase was largely teen and twenties students who could be on a lot, at weird hours, and whip up three characters like they were nothing may not have the same appeal to 40+ players who are trying to fit in a couple of hours for a scene a couple of times a week between a full time job, full time family, and other friends and hobbies. For a lot more of us, “I could die at any moment” is just less of an enticement at this stage. Maybe because we’re starting to worry about that in our real life!
But I definitely recommend that anyone who thinks there still IS an audience for the hardcore PvP-style of MU* go ahead and make one! More games are good, and having choice helps keep people engaged. Going back to the idea of the three-month player, I think having a wide variety of games in different genres (and subgenres) helps keep the overwhelming surge of people desperate for SOME game down a bit.
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the accepted wisdom used to be that you had to have a decent population of the nightclub people to attract the Serious Stuff people but there are like 10 MUers left so idk if that still holds true
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LOL so do the kind of players who only stick around for 3 months think social RP is evil or want social RP and are these at all the same thing or two totally unrelated questions?
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@RedRocket said in The 3-Month Players:
Yet, few shows were as successful or as well known as GoT. The stories where your favorite characters might be lost at any moment are the ones people become most invested in. Investment is what we are looking for.
MASH, Friends, Dallas, and the 21st season of Grey’s Anatomy would like a word. Investment does not require death. It just doesn’t. There have been plenty of MU*s that have proven that. If PC permadeath is your thing - no shade! It’s a perfectly valid playstyle. It just isn’t the only way to be successful.
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@Pavel said in The 3-Month Players:
I’ll use another metaphor. If all you do is Event RP, Plot RP, or whatever you’re calling Not-Social-RP, then you’re playing the first 15 minutes of Saving Private Ryan over and over and over again. The only character information you get being the how not the why.
I like that analogy. I’s the “social RP” scenes in Saving Private Ryan that elevate the movie beyond just a shoot-em-up. Like the quiet scene in the church where the captain and sergeant are remembering the guys they’ve lost. That’s character development.
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@Faraday I knew I’d get a good metaphor out there eventually. One shouldn’t make analogies when one is on a rewatch binge.
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I’d honestly take three months of good RP over a game that drags on and on past its expiration date
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@Faraday said in The 3-Month Players:
I like that analogy. I’s the “social RP” scenes in Saving Private Ryan that elevate the movie beyond just a shoot-em-up. Like the quiet scene in the church where the captain and sergeant are remembering the guys they’ve lost. That’s character development.
But not what I would call social RP. What you’re describing has a point to it, even if it’s just talking. It’s an exploration of their predicament, founded upon the plot. It’s, well, part of the story, even.
I think the ‘social RP’ is the stuff where characters randomly bump into each other, for no reason other than their players being bored, with nothing to really talk about beyond what they randomly come up with. So I appreciate the metaphors, but they’re not really addressing what I was talking about, which was that social RP by itself, with no plot, seems to never actually sustain a population, at least from my observation. From what it sounds like on this thread, that’s a common problem everywhere.
Yes, both are needed. Unfortunately in the case of my game it’s the plot part which keeps on being left out unless certain key players are there doing it, and the hardest part of all seems to be getting social RPers to understand this.
