Liberation Drama!?
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@nobody said:
I’m not going to keep engaging because I haven’t MUSHed in a long time, and only hop on now and then to chat with a couple friends who don’t use Discord.This is always an odd thing to say while choosing to engage, on a seemingly anonymous account that only posts about one particular game.
No dog in this race, don’t eat seafood, but I know fish when I smell it.
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AI detectors don’t work.
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@nobody said:
I’m not going to keep engaging because I haven’t MUSHed in a long time, and only hop on now and then to chat with a couple friends who don’t use Discord.This is always an odd thing to say while choosing to engage, on a seemingly anonymous account that only posts about one particular game.
No dog in this race, don’t eat seafood, but I know fish when I smell it.
That’s a fair thing to say. I played on Lib 3+ years ago and hadn’t MU*'d in a while since, but still check this place out now and then. I saw the activity in a thread about a game I used to play on so I commented about how only now saying any of this after getting banned reads more sour grapes than actual abuse. If you look back in the thread a bit, a number of people agree with it not being abuse, so it’s not like I’m even saying anything new.
Additionally, not wanting to engage with someone who, per previous posts on the topic, doesn’t take no for an answer and won’t let things go is just a general ‘too old for this shit’ disinterest in participating in that kind of argument, not some secret agenda.
but absolutely a fair call out.
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the people running the game still seem perfectly comfortable helping themselves to my work and attempting to access my Google Docs after removing me, and after a year of minimizing my contributions to the game.
While their alleged minimising of your contributions is regrettable, it’s a fairly frequent condition of entry that anything you contribute to the game can be used by the game. And when you say attempting to access your Google Docs, do you mean they are attempting to access something that has never been accessible by them, or something that you have since restricted? Those are very different situations.
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Ultimately, your response boils down to “I personally don’t care about this, so you shouldn’t either.”
That’s pretty much the current (fairly long standing) pattern 'round this corner of the hobby.
Spend ten or a hundred hours of your free time doing creative work to contribute to a shared fun space, then find that you are hurt and angry when somebody denies you a share in the fun but uses (and takes credit for) your work? How very childish of you, it’s just a game and your contribution can’t be monetised or anything.
Agree to GM but spend your time chauffeuring your besties around in Cheaty-Cheaty-Bang-Bang while ignoring everyone else, treating the two minutes it would take to say, “I refuse to GM for you, pound sand or leave,” to somebody as a Herculean task and see them squirm trying to find a path to inclusion? How very appropriate of you, you’re just too old for this shit.
It’s this flavour, except the peasant who ‘votes with their feet’ loses their life if they fail to establish themselves as an alpine goat or something, while the MUer who fails to find a better game or enjoy themselves as much writing a novel just loses a hobby.
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So basically, you read some bad things other people had said about me and decided that gave you a get-out-of-jail-free card to come in, make assumptions, and talk down to me, and then claim you’re not here to stir the pot. Reducing everything I said to sour grapes because I didn’t post about it on your preferred timetable.
If you genuinely had a “too old for this shit” disinterest in engaging, you could simply have not engaged in the first place.
I largely don’t disagree with you here. I obviously don’t expect the game runners to go through and scrub every trace of material I ever contributed. I was working with the understanding that much of this was collaborative work intended for the game. I worked like this under Sundance and Griffin for years. I understand what this sort of collaboration looks like.
A lot of what is currently sitting in my vault is material I developed while Sundance was still active, including systems she had approved or wanted implemented as far back as 2024, along with plot scripts I was unable to progress because of administrative bottlenecks and +jobs that were never actually handed over to me.
That’s a small facet of what I mean by minimizing my contributions. A lot of my work spent months or years sitting in administrative limbo instead of being implemented, even when Sundance had already approved it or specifically requested it be put up on the game-site.
Links to some of these documents were actually sitting in the +jobs system so they could actively be viewed, reviewed, and used by Sundance. Kraken closed all of those jobs a couple of months ago, effectively tossing all the +job side development communication in the garbage, and said they could simply borrow systems from another game instead,
The issue here is that there suddenly seems to be renewed interest in that developmental material now that I’m no longer around to participate in it or be credited as a contributor. Which was also an issue for Siren while I was still there.
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would never play on a game where staff obviously could not stand me, and that you do is absolutely mind boggling to me.
Oh, right. This.
That’s sort of the rub, isn’t it. It wasn’t obvious until they’d wasted a shitload of my time.That’s the bloody problem.
It really shouldn’t be mind-boggling to you that some people don’t take silence to mean "I can’t stand you’. I am not even sure how you get that out of what was actually said, which was “…can’t be bothered with you.” In any case, I just don’t feel like asking my GM for advice and a sheet-fix a second time when it didn’t get done before is all that evil, and I’m pretty sure that what I am not supposed to do is make the jump from “I keep getting skipped” to “the GM hates me!” without, like, asking what’s going on.
Why is it 'not taking a hint’ seen as bad player behaviour when hints are hints? Why are ‘not communicating clearly’ and ‘not communicating at all’ so defensible? This seems poor practice.
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@Gashlycrumb I’m curious. This whole situation where the staff give you the cold shoulder seems to be something you have encountered before. How many games by your estimation have you been on where the staff eventually just stop responding?
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One.
I appreciate your continued efforts to help me feel bad about myself.
You are not, in fact, curious. I can see the parallels and anticipated that you’d be eager to point them out, but curiosity is not your motivator.
MN headwiz did not “stop responding.” +requests for me there had an average of 16 day turn-around when other people claimed four days. Staffer kept making scene appointments with me, then standing me up, then rescheduling and doing it again and again, such that it took an average of five reschedules to ever actually get to the thing. She frequently critiqued my behaviour and I repeatedly corrected it and found that this was impossible – asked not to complain about the game, I stopped only to be told that everything I ever mentioned negatively on any space was a thinly-veiled reference to the game, even if it was something that happened decades previously. Eventually I was ‘complaining’ by joining the LFRP channel and not saying anything at all. That staffer approached me the week before I was banned to give me a lecture about how content I should be without plot because everybody loved me and I got more +recs than anyone. Yet at the same time she was complaining about me on the staff channel daily, it seems. Also, frankly, that situation lacks bearing on pretty much any other because we were close friends previously and it’s fucking complicated.
I don’t know Siren from adam and I asked for normal player shit in a polite if no-doubt over-explainy way, and then had the gall to ask again when the issue didn’t get resolved.
Also, it’s a damn common complaint about Lib. For years a huge segment of players have found that their +requests sit and then get closed without being handled to ‘clear the queue.’ Scroll up. I actually suspect that Siren ignored me for that long out of pure habit and laziness, and then told me I deserved it rather than admit that she just can’t be bothered for a (formerly, who’s left?) significant segment of players, without stopping to think, “That’s worse, you do get how that’s worse, right?”
Also, no, not “eventually stop responding.” My entire experience with Siren was of someone who responded once and then ignored any follow-up. If her first response didn’t resolve the problem or answer the question, fucked are you, O Starr.
ETA: Oh, wait, since it wasn’t an ‘eventual’ stoppage but a near-immediate one, then the number of MUs where this has happened to me is actually zero.
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@Gashlycrumb I’m sorry this went this way for you, I think you really set the wrong tone by opening up by calling yourself ‘legitimately extremely annoying’ and a ‘horrible person’.
I’m gonna try a little rock em sock em both sides, though. As a staffer, if you knew that turning someone down/telling them they were being too much was likely to get you called abusive and stupid and whatever else…would you be eager to have that conversation? Would you want to put it at the top of your to-do? It’s not good behavior, but it’s understandable behavior, isn’t it? It’s at least as understandable as being cheesed off when your +requests are not getting answered in a timely fashion – which is a valid reason to be cheesed off!
fr fr
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Avoiding a problem is so much easier than confronting said problem, particularly when you can always justify the avoidance by assuring yourself that there’s so many more important things to do…
It’s even easier-er if that problem walks and talks and insists on itself.
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@hellfrog Yeah;. What I was getting at with that is that even if a player is annoying and horrible, it’s not good practice to just leave them twisting. That is to say that, even in cases where it’s understandable, it’s crap.
As a staffer, if you knew that turning someone down/telling them they were being too much was likely to get you called abusive and stupid and whatever else…would you be eager to have that conversation? Would you want to put it at the top of your to-do?
Turning someone down, or telling them they’re being too much, or even just telling them to re-read the theme guidelines and not app an elf into an elf-free world is likely to get that response. I did know it when I was staffing. I knew it would happen before it happened, which was practically day one. (It was an elf.) If you are staffing an open game it’s going to happen.
Did I like it? No. Did I worry about it? No. Did I take a few moments to be chill and centered before I told people stuff like that? Yes. Did this mean I didn’t do it instantly? Yes. Did this mean I might even put it off 'til tomorrow? Yes.
Did this mean I’d decide to just not do it at all and hope the player went away? NO. Absolutely fucking not. It is understandable that I might want to, but it’d be mean and harmful to actually do that. If that player is waiting and waiting for a response from me they are experiencing frustration every time they log on and find no answer. It builds up. The player is gonna get cheesed off and it’s likely that they will, understandably, act like they’re cheesed off. The scent of cheese permeates. Pretty soon the vibe is in shambles, and it’d be my fucking fault for consciously and unnecessarily aggravating somebody instead of doing a part of the staffing job that’s not fun.
Grasp the nettle firmly, for fucks’ sake.
“This is Liberty Hall; you can spit on the mat and call the cat a bastard!”
– A. Bertram Chandler -
“No.” is a complete sentence.
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It builds up. The player is gonna get cheesed off and it’s likely that they will, understandably, act like they’re cheesed off.
While that is true and just as understandable, to me, as the staffer’s inability to deal with confrontation with irritable/irritating players… you as the player are responsible for your actions here just as you’re, rightly, holding the staffer responsible for their actions.
The best approach is to leave, not to cause more problems. Either the staffer is intentionally ignoring you, or their backlog is so bad that it’s negatively impacting you. Either way, you leave and hope for better elsewhere. Then you come here and bitch about it with your moral superiority intact.
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