I want bad stuff to happen sooner rather than later, to see how the staff and community make it fun, because that’s going to be a great way to know whether or not the game is right for me.

@Tez said in AI In Poses:

I saw a lot of people going ‘oh no, people might think I’m AI’ on the other thread but no examples of anyone actually getting incorrectly flagged. I think these are strawmen. Have we seen it happen?

I put some of my writing for room descs into an AI detector. Almost every one was marked as AI. Then I tried some from a former builder who I know was using AI (but I hadn’t honed my personal detection methods well enough to spot it, and we’ve since removed all of her descs). And it came back as not AI. This was back in early 2024, though, so maybe detection methods have improved in almost 2 years.

Some things I’ve noticed about LLMs is that they can never create entertaining details. And sometimes it’ll generalize by saying there are a bunch of the thing, or that its qualities are very quality. It spends a lot of time saying nothing of value, while giving the appearance of value. It’s so afraid to offend that it never takes risks. Its prose is cowardly, milquetoast, and superficial. It’s simultaneously compositionally professional and media-illiterate. And it passes those traits on to the people who use it.

@Trashcan said in AI Megathread:

There were about 6 million auto accidents in 2022. If the self-driving car (extrapolated to the whole population) would have caused 5 million accidents, it would be better.

Making cities walkable would be far better than throwing more money into the abyss that cities become when they’re overrun by self-driving cars.

@Yam I stumbled on an old chat where I tried to help someone fit in and I grew too exhausted to continue helping. The names have been changed to the names of Neopets I’ve never heard of before today.

PEOPHIN played a character named VANDAGYRE. Here are some of VANDAGYRE’s poses, for reference.

• VANDAGYRE coughs into his fist as he glances around, picking his pointer finger into his ear.

• VANDAGYRE ,despite this, coughs into his hand once more, his yellow teeth being quite brazingly shown as he glances around awkwardly, “IS JUST MAYBE BUFFER, BECAUSE IS NOT KNOW HOW TO PROPERLY SAY IS THINGS.”

• VANDAGYRE stares at the person, his dull eyes staring into the person’s chest as he grins, his jagged, stained teeth showing as he shouts loudly, “ME VANDA. PLACE NOT MAKE SENSE. HEAD HURT.”

• VANDAGYRE looks at the person as he stares at them with an empty face, his voice still booming loudly, “IS HAVING BRAIN INJURY. HAVING HARD TIME CONTROLLING IMPULSES. IS EMBRACE INSTEAD OF TRY TO FIGHT IT. REALLY NOT BIG DEAL, VANDA NOT WANT TO MONOLOUGE ABOUT INNER HEAD BULLSHITTERY.”

• ~VANDAGYRE~ (IS SOMEBODY SAY OILY WRESTLING?)

• ~VANDAGYRE~ (VANDA LIKE THROW TINY PEOPLE IS MAKE FEEL WHOLE AGAIN.)

• ~VANDAGYRE~ (VANDA LIKE YOU IS. WILL THROW YOU ANYTIME IS FOR FREE, NO CHAGHE.)

Here’s the OOC conversation. It’s uncut aside from one section I removed for brevity and privacy, where PEOPHIN asked about the behavior of another banned player.

PEOPHIN
Hey, sorry to message-- I’ll just make this as short as I can because I don’t want to bother to much (about silent heaven).

I don’t know if it was you or someone else, but I was playing as a character that was portrayed as dumb and loud, I then had a staff reach out to me saying that I was being to ditruptive. When I tried questioning as to how my character was being disruptive in a manner that was negatively impacting other players, I didn’t recieve an answer aside from “people complained”.

I don’t see what I did being against the rules anywhere, and I didn’t recieve any explanation when I tried to probe as to exactly why. I did things like talk in all caps and generally be big and dumb with his statements, but I feel it was at least a little unfair that I was literally told to stop without being given any additional information when I tried asking.

Sorry to bother. I can give more information if you want. If you don’t want to respond that is compeltely fine and I understand. It just overall does not sit right in my tummy and I feel I had a good, humerous character going, and any possible development I could have had was completely wiped away without a thought. (I don’t normally like talking about these things, I usually just move on if it ever happens, but it really didn’t sit right with me. Again, sorry to bother.)

JUMPSCARE
Hi there!

I’ve looked into this.

Your behavior as VANDAGYRE was described as trolling, over the top, and especially hard to RP with, as well as disruptive over the winds.

When asked to tone it down or refine the character, you responded with, “If what I’m not doing right now is not okay I’d prefer to just make a new character if that’s alright. His whole gimmick is to be loud and disruptive.”

This preference was honored. VANDAGYRE was stored, and you were notified that you were allowed to create a new character.

PEOPHIN
Can you tell me how it was supposed to be trolling or hard to rp with?

I tried asking about it, because the only thing I agree with was that is the over the top (intentionally).

and just to be clear, I was specifically only told to “be less distruptive”, and I didn’t receive any explanation as to what that meant. When he was talking over the winds, he was genuinally expressing interest in something he heard, and complimenting somebody. Maybe I’m misunderstanding what is meant by disruptive, because at least over the winds, he was just talking how he talks (I did use him in all caps, but again that is intentional, and if that was the issue of using it specifically in winds, it wasn’t mentioned to me at all specifically).

I had numerous interactions that felt pretty filled out-- I took his over-the-top nature and bounced off of other characters, etc.

The way I see it-- the character isn’t troll, but he is meant to be comedic and not taken seriously. I’m just confused, because it seems like playing a character that is meant to not be taken seriously isn’t allowed-- I made strides to make sure that he wasnt disruptive when talking to people, he didn’t just blab on in the winds, etc. I feel like there’s a big misrepresentation of his actions and I’d appreciate it if it were adressed, if possible. This whole situation, as a new player to the game, just feels like its meant to make me want to leave because it feels like I was bullied out of what could be a good and fun character concept.

JUMPSCARE
I can’t tell you how; I’m just relaying how players who played with your character felt. Hopefully you’ll be able to reflect on that. You’ve shown here that you understand the ways that you were disruptive and over the top.

Ultimately, that iteration of VANDAGYRE was not a good fit for Silent Heaven.

PEOPHIN
It feels, very unfair though, considering I put effort in and have tried telling you I think that a lot of those things (not all) are misunderstandings. Are there not characters in Silent Heaven that are humerous and made to be jokes but took time for people to get used to? The way I see it, people saw a humerous character that was over the top, immedietly thought it was a troll, and complained. It feels unfair that staff reached out to me instead of probing further or to find solutions, it really just feels like people are trying to chase away a new player here.

I’m sure there are over the top or disruptive characters that exist, so I am confused why this specifically is not being allowed. And for people that felt that is was trolling, I’d like to itterate that I actually put noticeable effort into scenes and his mannerisms-- I had details that most trolls would not, etc.

JUMPSCARE
There are not over-the-top or disruptive characters.

You’ve been given multiple options. But it feels like you’re rejecting all of them. What do you specifically want?

PEOPHIN
It feels like the only true option I’ve been given is “make a new character”. When I keep asking about being less disruptive, I’m not getting a definitive answer on what exactly that means, so I am confused, admittingly.

I would prefer to play a dumb (likely brain damaged) and loud character who rushes headfirst into things, who is obnoxious and meant from a OOC perspective to be taken as a joke, while still having serious moments as it happens in rp. Is there a way for that to be okay?

There’s things I can obviously change like, conveying loudness in ways that isnt talking in all caps, not using all caps over winds, etc. But At least for the main parts (being obnoxious, loud, etc), I’d just like to know if playing a character like that is possible.

JUMPSCARE
The option to refine VANDAGYRE was a true option also! Hence why I said “that iteration of VANDAGYRE” was not a good fit for Silent Heaven.

I try to say exactly what I mean so that there’s no confusion from implied meanings. Such as the above.

Your suggestions are all fine; you simply have to remember that what makes a character like that good is if you’re playing it in a way that’s fun for the other players and not frustrating. It means putting a lot more emphasis in writing for the other players than for yourself.

At this point, I’d suggest remaking with a character who’s a little more down-to-earth. More emphasis on prose instead of trolly emotes. Then you can revisit VANDAGYRE after you’ve played a character and have a good feel for the vibes here.

PEOPHIN
I’m glad you’re saying that part about the options now, but at least at the time, I basically had my character boxed and when I tried talking out solutions, I couldn’t @gm, and the person that moved me left my room, so any potential to change things there and make it simple felt like it just… got halted.

I still want to make a character with those traits that I listed, is that possible? What I don’t understand about the emote comment, is that he had plenty of times where he was simply doing things like putting his hand on someone to facilitate a greeting, would make facial expressions to show how he feels, etc, which I feel are not trolly emotes at all and showed the character is fine.

And for a BIG example to just be clear of why I think VANDAGYRE was an example of writing for other characters despite his qualities: there was a scene where someone asked about his yelling, and instead of going into a long monolouge about his upbringing, I decided to make it fit his character more by him literally saying he dosen’t want sit there and blab to people in a monolouge, which I felt really made it clear that the focus was still about making a good story, not to just have a silly gimmick character and let it be just that.

I don’t know if you read most of my emotes, but I included things that made it clear he was defintely not trolly, such as him reacting when someone praised him (in detail), how he processes numerous people, how he deals with being told things, etc.

And also, sorry to draw this out so much. I just want to know if with those qualities I listed, making a character like that is possible. I am like, 90% sure the traits I listed would actually be fun to interact with, given that most characters are by nature serious, and having a character to rely on that is honest, yet not all mentally there can make for a good concept to latch to.

I’d like to add that normally I play my cutesey, happy characters, but I’d like to make this work if possible

JUMPSCARE
I appreciate you writing all of that out.

At this time, you may create a down-to-earth character. If you don’t want to, you don’t have to.

I need to attend to other players now. Thank you.

PEOPHIN
Damn, that hurts. I wish you would just let me try to make it work and show you it can be an overall benefit, but alright.

This feels, really shitty, especially considering I’m a new player, but I understand you got other people to deal with, I just hope you can return to this when you have time.

PEOPHIN, 2 days later
Hey, if it’s not to much to ask, could you have someone take my character out of the UFO room or whatever it’s called? I’d like to run with it and just fix some of the things we talked about if that’s alright, please

JUMPSCARE
Hi there! Give me a bit and I’ll be able to do that.

PEOPHIN
Thank you very much , also sorry to bother so much about it.
I think people will like it and it’ll be fun, they’ve just gotta give it a chance before judging

And just to be clear-- I guess I’d be fine making a different character, but I really want to make like a goofy, funny one that can get a laugh out of myself and people. I see that idea with VANDAGYRE, however I don’t really know a lot about the disquise mechanic, but I’m thinking I could just make a character with that and have them do wacky stuff too, again I’m just not sure because I’m new and reading HELP only helps me so much.

My only issue, is I don’t want to run VANDAGYRE, then get admin bonked and told to change without someone actually hearing me out and having a discussion. I don’t like having opinions stuffed down my throat and being forced or told to change something that I think is unfair without a proper, full discussion.

JUMPSCARE
I’m always amenable to hearing people out. It doesn’t always mean that I’ll accept it, because my interests are solely in line with protecting the community from grief.

I will always choose to run a smaller game with minimized grief than a larger one with uncontrolled grief. Please keep that in mind as you return to the game.

VANDAGYRE is back in his private room. Please rewrite his backstory, and also tone down his goofiness. Focus on roleplaying and integrating into the world instead of pulling people out of it with the tonal shift of VANDAGYRE’s previous appearance.

PEOPHIN
Right-- would it be okay if you could tell me what is wrong with running a goofy character in a serious setting? I’m sure that it’s possible to integrate into the world even with a goofy character as long as it’s done properly, is that not okay here? I have heard characters referencing other people that are similar to VANDAGYRE in acting, so I’m struggling to see the problem if it’s done right.

Because I can assure you, I think it is quite easy to run a character that is meant to be goofy, but still have serious, realistic actions with that character that come from their worldview and experiences. I can, quite easily run a goofy character that is not griefing and still focuses on roleplaying and integrating into the world, is that not okay?

I had good interactions with a character named OGRIN, if you really think that the type of character I’m trying to run is problemematic you could just ask them, because I think we had some actual good roleplay that showed VANDAGYRE can integrate into roleplay just fine despite his goofy, not-so-there nature.

JUMPSCARE
OGRIN was one of the ones who expressed that VANDAGYRE needed a nudge in the right direction.

It’s very possible that Silent Heaven just isn’t the right game for you, and there’ll be another game that’ll better cater to the style of RP you enjoy.

PEOPHIN
I agree with that sentiment, he needs a change in the right direction. But you are, basically telling me that running a goofy character is not allowed, and I’m curious as to why.

I’m fine with changing parts of him-- like making it more refined. After all, it was my first day there so obviously there’s going to be some things to work out, like some of the things I mentioned that we mutually agreed should be changed.

What is wrong with running a goofy character in this setting if done properly? I noticed other characters referencing a name of someone similar to my own goofy character to compare, so surely there are some that are considered goofy already. Instead of refining the goofiness to make it work, why are you trying to get me to change it completely?

Is the idea of a mentally deranged, dumb, snappy, and happy character something that isn’t generally allowed here, even if done correctly?

If that’s not what you see with him right now that’s fine, but that is the intent, of course the first time implementing it is gonna need polishing

JUMPSCARE
I’m sorry. I feel like this conversation is taking up yet more of my time with no progress forward. I’ve given you more than enough guidance, and I’ve tried in many ways to convey that that’s not a good character concept for a first character. I’m no longer continuing with this back-and-forth.

At this point, I’m storing VANDAGYRE again and disinviting you from Silent Heaven.

Whenever someone launches a new game, I’m always open to sharing my banlist of sex pests and nazis with the game runner.

Conversely, I’m also open to vouching for great players.

@Wizz said in Warma-Sheen:

@hellfrog said in Warma-Sheen:

this guy has more than once joined a game just to cheat, right out of the gate, with a side of negging the game runner from the fake alt for absolutely no reason. ‘your game sux, no one has reached out or been nice to me except Me’

not to mention some of his absolutely rancid takes here and back on MSB, most of which was consistently dismissing victims of harassment and insulting people trying to support them.

sincerely sorry to the people who came to his defense over the Empire thing, I don’t think it makes anything y’all were saying in general less valid, but the dude is a tool and didn’t deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks for the clarification.

The odd thing is that I didn’t read any hostility in Warma Sheen’s messages. And if I did, is there anything wrong with responding with something like this?

“I appreciate you pointing out the inaccuracy. But I don’t appreciate the negativity it was phrased with. Please keep this in mind for the future. Thanks.”

Can someone please clue me in? I know Warma Sheen has some history, but to a request like that, I’d say something like, “I’m focusing on finishing up plot X. But looking at the request, I don’t think we have support for that kind of RP, unfortunately. Try another angle aside from a complete wealth transferral (however temporary). Sounds good?”

What am I missing?

I’ve updated the list with the ones you all remembered the names of, haha.

From discussion on another thread, I’m now curious which US states have never had a MU* with them as their primary location. Here’s what I found from a cursory search.

California - Liberation
Colorado - Sheltering Skies, Shadowrin Denver
Louisiana - Black Bayou
New Mexico - Masquerade
Virginia - Keys
Washington - GarouMUSH

@KarmaBum said in Missed Settings:

@Jumpscare The game-owner was Tek with a new handle on. The game went under a few weeks after they were outed for lying to everyone.

• Are you Tek? https://brandmu.day/topic/53/mu-peeves-thread/1490?_=1760278262487
• “I wasn’t lying; I just wasn’t telling the truth.” https://brandmu.day/topic/53/mu-peeves-thread/1512?_=1760278262489

Oh, thank you for finding that! It explains everything.

@InkGolem said in Missed Settings:

@Jennkryst said in Missed Settings:

There was that Legally Distinct Not-Really Zombies game set in Canada where people got infested with worms instead of your usual virus and/or Last of Us Fungus. But it was tricksy.

Tricksy how?

In my experience, the head ST disappeared at a critical time in player retention, and the rest of us had nearly nothing to RP about. If something was going on behind the scenes, I was oblivious to it.

I don’t remember its name, and it seems nobody else knows it either. The game closed in less than 2 months.

I’m out of ideas, then.

@dvoraen said in Re: Dies Irae:

@Jumpscare The db and ndb attributes are AttributeHandler objects, to my recollection, and it’s my understanding that using db in particular will automatically handle the database-serialization and synchronization for you. Which is why I feel like I’m forgetting something if move_to() invocation is what fixed the DI problem in question.

Ah, yes, using db handles the serialization, usually. Lists and Dicts are automatically serialized, as are Object references. Strings and Integers are not. You can also intentionally not serialize things by adding .deserialize() to the end of a db request. That last thing is what was being done on Dies Irae, which has been fixed.

@MisterBoring said in Re: Dies Irae:

@Jumpscare said in Re: Dies Irae:

I wanted to see how so many coders become cynical reactionaries

From my time in IT, I can assure you that coder burnout exists across the entire realm of coding, not just MUs.

Oh, I would never want to code as a profession. That sounds like it would suck all the fun out of it.

I suppose the real reason ties back to the capitalistic feeling of a lack of ownership in one’s work.

@dvoraen said in Re: Dies Irae:

updating the database when you use the attribute handler

Using handlers is a topic that escapes a number of Evennia developers, including myself. My experience was that there wasn’t a clear enough tutorial on handlers back when I made Silent Heaven.

@Pavel said in Re: Dies Irae:

@somasatori said in Re: Dies Irae:

Having Jumpscare dress me down is making a lot of this clear as to why things didn’t work!

I wouldn’t take it as a dressing down. She’s just a very tired teacher reaching for her third bottle of whiskey with one hand, pinching the bridge of her nose with the other, and staring at an assignment from that one child…

I’ve been there.

I disagree with that characterization. I’m fairly new, myself. Silent Heaven is my first coding project ever. It was supposed to be a short project during the 2020 quarantine that I’d throw away once I inevitably broke it. I wanted to see how so many coders become cynical reactionaries who despise the players, so I could have a better respect for the stuff they have to go through.

In the 5 years since then, I haven’t displayed any contempt for mankind, so I’m thinking it might not be the coding that makes coders that way. So much for that sociological hypothesis.

@dvoraen said in Re: Dies Irae:

@Jumpscare said in Re: Dies Irae:

@somasatori said in Re: Dies Irae:

multiple deserialized calls to update self.db.location

I run a horror game, and that line is scarier than anything I’ve ever written.

I kind of need an ELI5 because I think I understand the scream-emoji worthy part, but I am not sure if I completely understand the nuance. Either way, WHY DESERIALIZED? (The all caps part is me going )

When you look at your character sheet, you now have that information in your head. The DM says you lost 3 HP. You update the information in you head and you record it on your character sheet. The information in your head is serialized with the information on your character sheet.

The DM says your character has successfully moved from the LA Streets to the Corner Bakery. You update that information in your head but you don’t update it on your character sheet. You tell the DM that you want to say hello to the baker. The DM looks at your sheet and says that there’s no baker on the LA Streets. The information in your head is deserialized with the information on your character sheet.

The weirdest thing about this is that Evennia has a built-in method on objects called move_to(). It handles moving an object to another room. If you wanted to do more with movement, you could just extend that method.

@somasatori said in Re: Dies Irae:

multiple deserialized calls to update self.db.location

I run a horror game, and that line is scarier than anything I’ve ever written.

@MisterBoring said in Character Death:

your PC sacrifice ties off an 18 month plot and removes one of the biggest antagonists in the game permanently

Someone did that in Silent Heaven. The character was absolutely outmatched, but their sacrifice gave the other PCs just enough time to recover and defeat the big bad.

After the event, I created the “Blaze of Glory” role in Discord just for them. It’s a special tag that has no effect, but it carries a lot of meaning.

@MisterBoring said in Factions:

@Jumpscare said in Factions:

There have been players who have agreed to fights but say they “won’t fight back.”

I’m curious if they only did this when they knew they were involved in a punitive conflict, like the one you described. If they’re fully up for it when they’re “in the right”, then it’s totally anti-fun.

If the character is trying to portray a complete pacifist who holds to that even when they are in the direct path of harm, then it’s a whole different thing that isn’t anti-fun if recognized early and embraced.

The character was part of a combat faction. When a fellow faction member called for help fighting off a monster, the character avoided the fight. So the NPC leader felt it necessary to test the character’s combat capabilities. If he lost, that could prompt the leader to tell him to get stronger. If he won, then the leader could relent and accept him. Either way, I wasn’t going to boot the character from the faction. It was less of a punitive fight and more of a restorative fight.

Sometimes an IC challenge can be a practical way of asking the player if they’re actually having fun in the role they’ve chosen.

In Silent Heaven, characters can’t die (for spoilery reasons). There are many ways to have a contest, but one of the fastest ways to defuse a situation is with a little violence. There aren’t many downsides to engaging in combat, although the downsides scale slightly higher for more experienced characters that have a greater chance of winning (longer recovery times, and so on). I often encourage players with combat-capable characters to resolve things by fighting out their differences and calling it a day. It really does reduce tensions to have a climactic beat in the story.

Conflicts aren’t supposed to fester passively. In the game’s policies, it’s a social contract of all players to ensure feuds are resolved in a timely manner that’s agreeable to all parties involved.

Additionally, there are factions for players who are into combat, and they can effectively throw hands whenever they please, for the fun of it.

It works, for the most part. The biggest flaw is one I never expected. There have been players who have agreed to fights but say they “won’t fight back.” This completely sucks the fun out of any conflict. You need to nip those anti-fun practices before they spread. Once, in a medium-combat faction, I had the boss NPC of the faction desire a spar with one of the PCs as a way of making up for the PC’s transgression against the faction. The idea being that they fight and all is made right in the end, regardless of who wins the fight. The PC decided to be a pacifist, passed all his combat turns, and said things like, “This won’t solve anything.” (It literally would have solved everything.)

That kind of play makes victories feel hollow, and losses inconsequential. It almost feels like metagaming.

In order for conflict resolution between players to be amicable through contests (strength, art, cooking, and so on), I feel like players have to agree to do a few things:

1. Use the tools available to have such contests.
2. Actually try to win.
3. Make the reward for winning and the penalty for losing feel small. (This one is largely enforced by the theme and occasionally STs.)

There are probably more things I’m forgetting. But it does feel pretty similar to playing a board game with friends.