AI In Poses
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I have a question. What do you get out of MUSHing, a hobby wherein you write paragraphs at people in a turn-based format, when you’re not actually doing the writing? What’s the end goal there?
"And the Fool says, pointing to the invertebrate fauna feeding in the graves: 'Here a monarchy reigns, mightier than you: His Majesty the Worm.'"
Italo Calvino, The Castle of Crossed Destines -
@somasatori Validation, probably. A certain number of MU*ers don’t do this because they love the craft of writing RP, they do it because they want people to notice them and like them.
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@Ashkuri God there’s so many easier ways
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@Sillylily said in MU Peeves Thread:
@bear_necessities said in MU Peeves Thread:
I’m not saying it doesn’t happen but could someone post the pose in question? I just want to see how we know it’s AI.
Same. I’ve been accused of using AI even with glaring grammar errors (I’ll spell check but I use Oxford comas, …, --, and even semicolons). My grammar will never be perfect.
it’s not great to know ppl think I’m using not human programs for my very human poses. I don’t think I’m a robot… if I am I feel like I m missing some perks.I think assuming Oxford commas, semicolons, and mdashes are signs of AI writing is ridiculous and stupid. I am not the one who compiled a list of poses from someone and ran them through an AI “detector”, either, which is why I didn’t point any fingers.
The mere POSSIBILITY of it happenings sparked my comment that if you’re gonna do it, just let people know.
In Occam I trust.
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I can understand people using it as a translator. From what little I’ve seen, it seems to localise better than your bog-standard Google Translate might. I’ve not seen it being used as such in a MUing context, but I might actually be open to it in that instance.
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@Ashkuri Preach. They’re not here to play the game, they’re here to play the players. New tech, but not new behavior.
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abigail williams told me @tsar uses an m-dash
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IDK, it’s just the more people that complain about people using ChatGPT to write poses, without actually showing the pose in question or calling said people out, just makes me wonder if this is a REAL problem or just a real “problem”, yanno? Like I’m sure someone out there somewhere is using ChatGPT but I don’t know if it’s enough of an issue for pitchforks.
Also I ran a bunch of my poses through ChatGPT and asked if AI wrote it and it said it was debatable and so maybe I’m just secretly a robot.
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@bear_necessities said in MU Peeves Thread:
IDK, it’s just the more people that complain about people using ChatGPT to write poses, without actually showing the pose in question or calling said people out, just makes me wonder if this is a REAL problem or just a real “problem”, yanno? Like I’m sure someone out there somewhere is using ChatGPT but I don’t know if it’s enough of an issue for pitchforks.
I think the issue is that there’s a non-zero number of these people, but because ChatGPT is fed on basically all of the prose it can find anywhere, it’s increasingly hard to determine who uses ChatGPT and who doesn’t.
Also, people might just be afraid that the person they think is using it actually isn’t, and don’t want to look like an ass when it comes out that the person they’re accusing is just bumbling through their poses in a way that feels generated.
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@MisterBoring said in MU Peeves Thread:
it’s increasingly hard to determine who uses ChatGPT
I want to start writing @descs of accurately described AI art… you know, the eldritch images with too many fingers or limbs and the like? As a bit.
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Here’s the thing for me about the AI writing.
It’s never em dashes, semi colons, and oxford commas that make me think something is AI. Here are the traits I’ve seen that indicate AI:
- The sudden arrival of stylistically different content that is unlike anything this person has ever been able to produce before (like a poem sent in 2 minutes from a player who doesn’t usually write poems)
- A lack of that person’s usual writing quirks (or any writing quirks), smoothed out into something that sounds very generic and is devoid of typos and human mistakes
- A weird regurgitation of theme content in an “in this essay I will” sort of manner, often using sentences directly lifted from the game website
- Bizarrely positive/cheerful content that doesn’t particularly fit the character/situation and is somehow boring at the same time
- Use of the second person, especially in descs: ‘you see this, you feel such a way about this person’ or other types of vaguely power-posing comments that are out of vogue in MUSHing, like ‘he intimidates everyone who sees him’
- More thought-posing and metapose than is common in mushing. People do of course metapose in RP, but the AI will churn out poses that sound like a novel or fanfic, as though the reader can and should be expected to extensively know what’s happening in a character’s mind by listening in on their unspoken thoughts and motivations. We don’t do that in MU. AI doesn’t know that.
Check enough boxes here and then put it through multiple AI detectors and they all say 99-100% AI likely? Not 40-50%, but 100%? It’s AI.
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@Ashkuri said in MU Peeves Thread:
More thought-posing and metapose than is common in mushing. People do of course metapose in RP, but the AI will churn out poses that sound like a novel or fanfic, as though the reader can and should be expected to extensively know what’s happening in a character’s mind by listening in on their unspoken thoughts and motivations. We don’t do that in MU. AI doesn’t know that.
You’ll pry my overuse of meta from my cold, dead hands!!!
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@bear_necessities I mean obviously some metapose is a normal part of RP, right. But in other types of fiction writing the reader often observes from a perspective of omniscience that is not part of MU-style RP. AI poses will often give you that omniscience where you don’t expect it, and it can be jarring/a red flag.
Few of the items in the list above, all by themselves, would indicate AI use. In my opinion, there’s a degree of severity + combination with the other ones that makes it ring as AI.
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I actually have a contrary opinion on AI usage or maybe I’m not fully understanding what is being discussed or critiqued here, but I don’t think using something like ChatGPT is a horrible evil. From my years of enjoying this hobby, my experience shows me that there are three major points I need to develop to contribute good writing to the stories being woven together with those I am RPing with.
First, it’s creativity and imagination with the genre and game that you are participating in. Being able to take in the theme and metaplots, understanding the character you’ve selected, then come up with how your character would act and participate in the scenes and overall fictional world. Second, it’s translating that creativity, imagination, thoughts, and ideas into written form that is both enjoyable and clear for everyone to read. Lastly, it’s being able to cooperate with the community in the game. Coordinating with the staff and cooperating to your fellow players to help create and develop these stories and adventures.
For me, the first part I gained since I was a kid. My past time when I was young was reading a lot of novels, limited television and video games (strict parents growing up so no going out to party or too much tv/gaming). So my brain was already soaked in fantasy and sci-fi fiction. The second part took years of not just reading but also RPing, going from a newbie RPer that wrote probably very cringe and rough poses to something that was more palatable to everyone. The last part also took years as well as I had to shift from a more immature mentality of my character is the main character that I have to build up and shine to games being a cooperative experience where everyone works together to create a brilliant story. This last part has more to do with being more mature with age and experience and slowly developing a better understanding of the hobby.
So my “starting stats” into the hobby were probably a high part 1, low part 2, low part 3. Others may have different starts or a similar one like me. My view on ChatGPT is that it’s a tool, one that can help a lot with part 2. If someone writes their pose and feeds it so it corrects grammar, makes it flow better, etc., I don’t think that is a bad thing. It may even help with part 1 if it can assist the RPer with either a better understanding of the theme, plot, story or provide a different context, I don’t believe it’s a bad thing either. I highly doubt it can help with part 3 since that’s more about the player themselves and their own development.
So my views of ChatGPT usage do not seem to be a bad one, it opens the door to more people to participate and contribute without worrying that their writing sucks or will be laughed at. To me, that’s not a bad thing and if there are more people participating and adding to the story, that’s also not a bad thing. I’m not sure who will be wasting time having ChatGPT just come up with poses completely by itself and just copy pasting into the game, so to me, the concern may be a bit overblown. The final point is that maybe my reading palette is just bland where I haven’t been able to tell the difference between a pose generated by AI or one written by a person, or to the point where it is ruining my enjoyment. Just like I can’t taste the difference between a $1000 wine or a $100 wine.
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It’s my opinion that most people who use ChatGPT are either just on a MU to game it and “win” or embarrassed about their own pose quality compared to what others they are playing with are producing and use ChatGPT instead of actually practicing their pose-writing.
HOWEVER, it does dawn on me that one group of people might be using it for a noble reason that we haven’t really touched on here that I can see. I can totally see the use of ChatGPT as an assistive tech for a person with a physical disability. Perhaps there are people out there in our hobby with some physical limitation that would drastically slow down their pose speed, and the use of ChatGPT helps them keep up with the others on the games they choose to play.
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@KDraygo
I don’t think that the majority opinion is that using ChatGPT is a great evil; I think the majority opinion is that many of us don’t enjoy it and want people who are using it to pose (or substantive portions of what it produces to help them pose) disclose that they are. That being said, I’m going to take issue with a few of your points for the sake of being contrary myself.my experience shows me that there are three major points I need to develop to contribute good writing to the stories being woven together with those I am RPing with.
I would argue that Mushing doesn’t call on you to contribute “good writing to the stories”. It calls on you to contribute fun to the community of players. How you are doing this is by writing in stories, but it’s also by vibes and a million other things, like showing up when you said you would.
My view on ChatGPT is that it’s a tool, one that can help a lot with part 2. [translating that creativity, imagination, thoughts, and ideas into written form that is both enjoyable and clear for everyone to read.]
I am again going to argue that “Part 2” is not about being “enjoyable and clear for everyone to read”. It is about being enjoyable to interact with. This is not the same thing. Many great writers are not enjoyable to interact with because they leave no air in the space. I think you get that, because you come on to Part 3, which is
being able to cooperate with the community in the game. Coordinating with the staff and cooperating to your fellow players to help create and develop these stories and adventures.
This is close, again, but it’s not quite right. You are not cooperating to create and develop stories. You’re collaborating to create fun.
Am I being pedantic? Maybe. but there is an important distinction here between creating “good stories” and “good writing” (which we’ll grant for the sake of argument that those are things that ChatGPT can actually do) and creating a good time, which is the actual point of playing on one of these games.
I’m not sure who will be wasting time having ChatGPT just come up with poses completely by itself and just copy pasting into the game, so to me, the concern may be a bit overblown.
I promise it’s happening. But on to my closing point:
So my “starting stats” into the hobby were probably a high part 1, low part 2, low part 3. […] The second part took years of not just reading but also RPing, going from a newbie RPer that wrote probably very cringe and rough poses to something that was more palatable to everyone.
This is part of the journey, it’s part of the fun, it’s part of the magic of these games. Outsourcing the writing means you never get better. You never look back and laugh at your own cringe moments. You never track your progress and appreciate that you haven’t just been dicking around online, you’ve actually bettered yourself in some way. You weren’t just part of a cycle of regurgitating content, you created something, however meager. Studies have already shown that using ChatGPT to help you write something makes you less creative and less engaged, which sort of bumps up against your optimism about “Part 1”.
Do you think it’s fair that people ask AI users to disclose it?
he/him
this machine kills fascists -
Can we consolidate all our AI conversation into one big, or at least split off, AI thread? Not every discussion needs to turn into “Here’s my opinion on AI” again, and again, and again.
He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
BE AN ADULT -
@Trashcan’s got it. Spot on and according to Hoyle and so on.
@Trashcan said in MU Peeves Thread:
Do you think it’s fair that people ask AI users to disclose it?
It’s not unfair to ask, but you know they won’t do it.
