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Concordia Thread
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@Roz Well yes, obviously. But the horse has already bolted, unless they want to hit the undo button.
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@bored Was Levente banned? I only saw the bbpost about Percival and before that the only other person I know that was banned was Katerina’s first player. I had no idea what happened to Levente.
I guess I assumed they quit because the other 2 people that were banned had bbposts made about them.
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I love the fact there are no huge disparities, really. Everyone’s of roughly same social class. you see a little whisper of that with the distant bloodline people but I really REALLY hope that staff never tries to do a hard disparity in class. I have literally never seen that be sustainable long term on a game and it just seems to set up so many OOC resentments and fights I personally hope they keep it out of their scope of game. I really love that an org belongs to all its members. my experience on Arx is that while yes, all orgs on paper had to have multiple people in leadership, in practice and just by fiat it often fell solely to one person just because of rotating rerostering or life or whatever. Even worse, sometimes people would try to gatekeep each other sometimes between leadership pcs ICly and OOCly which was…not good. when it was bad, it was so so bad.
I won’t be surprised if there’s passive or purposeful resistance on behalf of players for awhile at the idea that no, you actually do not get to lord (ha ha) anything over another person when it comes to organizations or even to some degree in families. PC orgs don’t have staff leadership but it’s clear they’ll come down hard on people who try to step over the line even a little bit with the exclusionary ooc behavior. And while there are PC heirs–they’re just that. While lore says it’s usually a disgrace for them to be passed over, it’s not always the case, and I kind of hope that PCs don’t test that too by behaving badly thinking that staff won’t come down hard on an heir player oocly gatekeeping, because i’m pretty sure that they will. i’m sure at some point someone will probably try? For whatever reason, it’s really really really hard for certain folks to feel secure in the position that they feel that they have in a game without gatekeeping.
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@mietze All I want to do in the scholar group is soliloquy about the price of linen in Eldervale, blink owlishly, eat hot chip, and be an awkward bookworm.
they/them
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@somasatori Sir, there’s a trade org in the works for discussing the price of linen and such.
But no, I get it and I do like they are limiting people to 2. Since I recall seeing quite a few people respond to every post that went up.
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@Rucket I don’t know what happened to Levente. I logged in to 10+ notifications about all my messages with him deleted/purged and Percival banned. Someone mentioned a post by Percival but maybe it’s been deleted by now? So maybe he quit as part of the banning incident, but it feels not-coincidental.
Also re: group ‘founders’ I think that’s part of t he rub, and why I would prefer a more thematically-coherent approach. What if someone takes a 50 year old scholar off the roster 6 months from now? ‘Sorry, bud, you weren’t really involved in the scholar world like those plucky 18 year old pillars of wisdom who founded our community!’ It’s just weird.
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@bored said in Concordia Thread:
‘Sorry, bud, you weren’t really involved in the scholar world like those plucky 18 year old pillars of wisdom who founded our community!’ It’s just weird.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned from L&L games, it’s that plucky 18 year olds can do anything.
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@Tez said in Concordia Thread:
@Faraday said in Concordia Thread:
That said, I disagree that on top of game-runners’ already overwhelming duties we need to add “help misguided people to better themselves”. If they wish to do that, great. I applaud them. But they should not be expected to do so. Some of the most toxic people in this community will cry “I’m just misunderstood / I did nothing wrong” till the cows come home, so telling the difference between a serial predator and someone who doesn’t know better can be super tough. I don’t fault anyone for just drawing the line at “you’re not a good fit for this game.”
Big this. The last time I banned someone, it was probably something that they could have worked on and corrected, but damn if I have the bandwidth for that. I’m sorry, buddy. I just do not. I hope you grow and learn. Elsewhere.
man every time, Apos said this. But like, when you are staff there are six billion things awaiting your time and energy that are to the benefit of the people playing your game who are NOT being troublesome. Choosing to spend that time and energy ‘training’ someone is not the best use of it
fr fr
(she/her) -
@Polk said in Concordia Thread:
I have no idea if that is or was happening on Concordia, but “Let’s work together, friends!” is a MUSH player impulse.
well
it’s called Concordia
“let’s work together, friends” is actually one of the more sensible actions to be taken given the setting (not unlike Arx, which generally did a pretty fantastic job of having people put aside important differences in the face of existential threats)
bird's still the word
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@Rinel said in Concordia Thread:
not unlike Arx, which generally did a pretty fantastic job of having people put aside important differences in the face of existential threats
Which is not at all unlike real life. All the railing against ‘superfriends’ seems to conveniently forget that all kinds of disparate groups of people unite against a common/existential threat all the time.
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@hellfrog said in Concordia Thread:
@Tez said in Concordia Thread:
@Faraday said in Concordia Thread:
That said, I disagree that on top of game-runners’ already overwhelming duties we need to add “help misguided people to better themselves”. If they wish to do that, great. I applaud them. But they should not be expected to do so. Some of the most toxic people in this community will cry “I’m just misunderstood / I did nothing wrong” till the cows come home, so telling the difference between a serial predator and someone who doesn’t know better can be super tough. I don’t fault anyone for just drawing the line at “you’re not a good fit for this game.”
Big this. The last time I banned someone, it was probably something that they could have worked on and corrected, but damn if I have the bandwidth for that. I’m sorry, buddy. I just do not. I hope you grow and learn. Elsewhere.
man every time, Apos said this. But like, when you are staff there are six billion things awaiting your time and energy that are to the benefit of the people playing your game who are NOT being troublesome. Choosing to spend that time and energy ‘training’ someone is not the best use of it
sounds like it’s time to
KILL SIX BILLION THINGS AWAITING YOUR TIME AND ENERGY
But yeah, hellfrog has good advice here. Training rarely works. Take it from me, I thought I trained people on a game I ran (or at least I talked them through how to be good and ethical to players). I thought I could trust some people. I was very misguided in some people in whom I placed trust. People will usually tell you exactly what you need to know about them. Often it is best to just see people where they are and let them go. You’re not their therapist; you can’t make them see the consequences of their actions in a meaningful way if they choose not to engage with that themselves. Maybe they’ll grow from the experience, maybe they won’t. You present the facts of why they are no longer allowed there and then it’s up to them to internalize it or rail against it.
they/them
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@hellfrog said in Concordia Thread:
But like, when you are staff there are six billion things awaiting your time and energy that are to the benefit of the people playing your game who are NOT being troublesome. Choosing to spend that time and energy ‘training’ someone is not the best use of it
Yeah. And also - if the person is being that much of a disruption, what happens to the rest of the game if your ‘training’ doesn’t work? (Spoken from the bitter experience of a person who thought that a player could be guided, but ultimately had to ban them anyway.)
@Coin said in Concordia Thread:
I’m saying it’s best practices, and it’s worth striving towards those.
I don’t disagree that in most cases it’s good practice. I was responding to what I saw as absolutism in various posts (not necessarily yours - I’m too lazy to look them up now) about players being “entitled” to that information or staff having some kind of moral imperative to try to rehabilitate people before banning them.
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@Faraday said in Concordia Thread:
staff having some kind of moral imperative to try to rehabilitate people before banning them
From what I understand of the original utterance of this point, it wasn’t so much that staff had to rehabilitate or train people, but that supplying some information during the ban (like a reason, or general gist of complaints) would better enable good-faith players to correct behaviour they hadn’t otherwise realised that a) they were doing, or b) was wrong.
ETA: And I’d say, personally (since morality can only ever be personal) it would be a moral imperative to communicate that information if it can be done with the safety of others in mind, where it would be reasonable to assume that the behaviour was inadvertent or from a good-faith player.
He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
BE AN ADULT -
Rather than a moral imperative, could not informing people of the reasons behind their banning be a practical one?
I mean, MU*ing is a social activity. Having more people in the hobby is good as long as they are good actors. Good actors will naturally wish to improve or at least understand mistakes.
It seems counterproductive from a self-interest standpoint to just throw up your hands and declare that all people who get banned are not worth your time to even put out a “this is what you did wrong” message.
It’s a small effort that could have large dividends in the future.
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Well
reach heaven through banning, then
ETA: I’d give my thoughts on the matter, but honestly it’s not really relevant at this point. Can we talk about the game? I like this game. I’ve had good scenes in this game. I like that the staff is responsive to people bringing up issues that are problematic.
bird's still the word
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@Rinel said in Concordia Thread:
Can we talk about the game?
Conversations wander. Moderators can always split off the thread, since the last few pages really have very little to do with the game.
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Yeah, sorry, I wasn’t trying to scold as much as redirect
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@Pavel said in Concordia Thread:
@Faraday said in Concordia Thread:
staff having some kind of moral imperative to try to rehabilitate people before banning them
From what I understand of the original utterance of this point, it wasn’t so much that staff had to rehabilitate or train people, but that supplying some information during the ban (like a reason, or general gist of complaints) would better enable good-faith players to correct behaviour they hadn’t otherwise realised that a) they were doing, or b) was wrong.
ETA: And I’d say, personally (since morality can only ever be personal) it would be a moral imperative to communicate that information if it can be done with the safety of others in mind, where it would be reasonable to assume that the behaviour was inadvertent or from a good-faith player.
Right.
There is a big, big difference between “telling people why you’re banning them” and “training people to be better”. My stance during the entire thread has focused on the former.
In Occam I trust.
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@Coin As the person that started this I wanted to be informed. Not trained, I can do better now and I have my information. So, thank you for being open and honest Spes!
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@bored Okay, looks like Aequitas posted last night that Levente was indeed banned. I don’t know who they were, but I can understand the reasoning and am glad they communicated it.
