Staff Capacity

[Pavel]

@Roz said in Staff Capacity:

But my experience of WoD is that there seems to just be a fair amount of ST oversight needed for running story/plot/etc., and that part of things will be exactly the same.

Basically this.

And every additional sphere you add increases this in an almost logarithmic way. You’ve got different mechanics for every group, different story needs, figuring out how that story interacts with the stories for the other spheres and any metaplot you’ve got cooking… WoD/CoD games are often three or four games wrapped in a single framing device.

@mietze said in Staff Capacity:

I know nobody likes to be seen as being exclusive or disappointing people

I think it’s a combination of this and the (fear of) entitlement of potential players. Woe betide those who stand between a thing and a bunch of entitled prats who want the thing.

[L. B. Heuschkel]

@Pan said in Staff Capacity:

Sounds like we need a community project to get a couple of good working WoD plugins (if that’s what it’s called on Ares) going for cWoD 20th, and maybe nWoD 2e. Then games potentially could move to the codebase and thrive?

It’s my impression that a decently skilled coder (i.e., not me) can whip up the required plugins without breaking too much of a sweat – at least not when compared to building up an entire codebase.

It’s also my impression, though, that the main issue with WoD and other tabletop-to-mu* games is the oversight needed to keep the story on track. Tabletop games are designed to be 5-6 people against the world. It’s a lot to oversee when it’s actually 5-6 groups of 5-6 people – or more.

[Tez]

@L-B-Heuschkel said in Staff Capacity:

It’s also my impression, though, that the main issue with WoD and other tabletop-to-mu* games is the oversight needed to keep the story on track. Tabletop games are designed to be 5-6 people against the world. It’s a lot to oversee when it’s actually 5-6 groups of 5-6 people – or more.

I agree. There are ways that Keys is set up that other games aren’t which allows you to manage the staff overhead by delegating storytelling. With WoD/CoD/everything else, all of the systematized tabletop mechanics in the world aren’t going to also automate the storytelling, which is actually what I would expect is a large chunk of most staff brain.

You know, when it isn’t just people-management, be it managing other storytellers as @Apos mentioned or the ever-present player issues.

[Tat]

@L-B-Heuschkel said in Staff Capacity:

It’s my impression that a decently skilled coder (i.e., not me) can whip up the required plugins without breaking too much of a sweat – at least not when compared to building up an entire codebase.

I would not say this is true. I’d think even someone who knows Ares and how to code in it would have months of work to get a WoD plugin working - maybe MANY months, depending on what exactly they’re doing.

I’d say that to do it well, you probably have quite a bit of work that’s literally just figuring out what you want to code/support and how it’s going to fit into how Ares does things.

[L. B. Heuschkel]

@Tat Seeing as that you are a far better coder than I am, Tat, I’m going to point at you and say, listen to her, she knows her shit.

[Pavel]

An additional issue with WoD games - though not entirely unique to the genre - is expectation. Many (most?) folk who want to play a WoD game have already played one before. Probably more than one. Some of us have played WoD in its various incarnations for two decades and more.

With such a long history, there are traditions, expectations, and strongly held beliefs that can impact how a player approaches the game. And if you want a game open to all comers, no matter how many, that’s another facet you have to contend with. Which “common” house rules will you introduce, if any? What “standard” organisational structures are you going to implement? etc, etc.

And that’s not mentioning figuring out which version of WoD/CoD you’re going to use, and which bits of that version’s story you’re going to ignore.

[somasatori]

@hellfrog Agreed, also the only players should be staff alts so if they DO mess with the code, we can yell at them on the staff channel.

[Roz]

@Pavel said in Staff Capacity:

@Roz said in Staff Capacity:

But my experience of WoD is that there seems to just be a fair amount of ST oversight needed for running story/plot/etc., and that part of things will be exactly the same.

Basically this.

And every additional sphere you add increases this in an almost logarithmic way. You’ve got different mechanics for every group, different story needs, figuring out how that story interacts with the stories for the other spheres and any metaplot you’ve got cooking… WoD/CoD games are often three or four games wrapped in a single framing device.

Yeah, exactly. What an Ares plugin would do, I think, is make starting up a game more accessible to more people. But it would, I assume, mostly just provide a similar functionality to something like Theno’s code suite for MUX: you’d have your WoD sheets, a dice roller to roll stuff from them, ways to track spending and regaining your various pools, etc. But a good plugin would hopefully just make WoD game setup and maybe the maintenance a bit easier, and have the benefits that come from core Ares that people enjoy. But it can’t replace or automate away the areas that need staff oversight, arbitration, and storytelling.

[mietze]

It’s definitely important to consider the history of the genre too, yeah, and maybe make some very deliberate choices of structure as well as being willing to cull mercilessly when it comes to players who cannot or refuse to “get it” that a game that’s going to significantly alter in style of Ye Olde Skool of the past.

That’s not to say that people who are bumped for that are bad people, but it’s true that folks get very hyped up in nostagia and past expectations (good or bad) and either they can adapt or they need to move on. I also think that decision needs to be made relatively swiftly too, because constant ‘why can’t i/i don’t understand/oh could i just get this little change so it’d be more like’ can be disruptive to the game. But that can be tough to do! So I think that intimidation factor definitely can be a huge one.

I’ve had the non-code theme and scope written up for a Fading Suns game for many years now, and even was halfway done with an ares system for it, but then covid hit and other things blew up so I knew I didn’t have the energy. Mostly because I didn’t have the spoons to deal with the people who would come in with HUGE baggage from old Fading Suns games (and some of those folks hold grudges with the best of 'em) and while it’s not like I haven’t kicked people off or out before (including friends and we stayed friends after most of the time), it can be very draining. Even when I looked at keeping it small and private, I just wasn’t sure I had it in me.

I think anyone opening a public WoD ares game would have to deal with like…that on a outrageous scale, and my god I think i’ll have huge admiration for the first person to do such a thing.

[Pan]

@Roz said in Staff Capacity:

@Pavel said in Staff Capacity:

@Roz said in Staff Capacity:

But my experience of WoD is that there seems to just be a fair amount of ST oversight needed for running story/plot/etc., and that part of things will be exactly the same.

Basically this.

And every additional sphere you add increases this in an almost logarithmic way. You’ve got different mechanics for every group, different story needs, figuring out how that story interacts with the stories for the other spheres and any metaplot you’ve got cooking… WoD/CoD games are often three or four games wrapped in a single framing device.

Yeah, exactly. What an Ares plugin would do, I think, is make starting up a game more accessible to more people. But it would, I assume, mostly just provide a similar functionality to something like Theno’s code suite for MUX: you’d have your WoD sheets, a dice roller to roll stuff from them, ways to track spending and regaining your various pools, etc. But a good plugin would hopefully just make WoD game setup and maybe the maintenance a bit easier, and have the benefits that come from core Ares that people enjoy. But it can’t replace or automate away the areas that need staff oversight, arbitration, and storytelling.

Yeah, I think the accessibility is the winning feature, the ability for more people for good or bad to spin up games. The good: good games can come out of it. The bad: bad actors as reported here spinning up games and being bad. But I’d imagine they’d be figured out quickly and pointed out to be avoided or played on at ones own risk.

[Jennkryst]

@Pan said in Staff Capacity:

@L-B-Heuschkel said in Staff Capacity:

@Tez At a guess, it’s a combination of several factors.

One factor is that with Ares games at least, the whole behind-the-curtain operations have become significantly simpler and easier, assuming that you’re not running huge amounts of custom code to be maintained.

Another is probably that by now, we’ve all seen a lot of games go down in flames due to interpersonal fights on staff. Sometimes, it might feel safer to have just a few people.

For us on Keys, the magical number has been three.

Sounds like we need a community project to get a couple of good working WoD plugins (if that’s what it’s called on Ares) going for cWoD 20th, and maybe nWoD 2e. Then games potentially could move to the codebase and thrive?

Technically, you don’t need a plug in for that. You could just have a diceless WoD for the lulz and see where that leads.

Or a WoD setting started up with FS3. Or or or…

[Tez]

@Jennkryst said in Staff Capacity:

Or a WoD setting started up with FS3. Or or or…

Arguably, we have seen this. There have been a number of urban fantasy / shifter games which hit the same broad niche and have drawn some of the same players.

[Pyrephox]

@Tez said in Staff Capacity:

@L-B-Heuschkel said in Staff Capacity:

It’s also my impression, though, that the main issue with WoD and other tabletop-to-mu* games is the oversight needed to keep the story on track. Tabletop games are designed to be 5-6 people against the world. It’s a lot to oversee when it’s actually 5-6 groups of 5-6 people – or more.

I agree. There are ways that Keys is set up that other games aren’t which allows you to manage the staff overhead by delegating storytelling. With WoD/CoD/everything else, all of the systematized tabletop mechanics in the world aren’t going to also automate the storytelling, which is actually what I would expect is a large chunk of most staff brain.

You know, when it isn’t just people-management, be it managing other storytellers as @Apos mentioned or the ever-present player issues.

Although, I will say that I think other games could do more ‘leash-loosening’ by giving up the need to keep some things “secret” that don’t actually NEED to be secret. Make some organizations/factions/characters OOCly public, complete with character sheets and goals - let people take that and run with it. “Here’s the West Side Butchers - they’re a gang of 25 teenagers and a few ‘upper level’ gangsters running operations in X neighborhood. Here’s a lookout’s character sheet, here’s a basic member, here’s the ‘powerful’ ones and here’s what they’re trying to do in X. Run any scene you like using these stats, compatible with X, that you’re willing to post publicly.”

Ah, but people will take advantage! Some will, yeah. And then you kick them from the game. Because games don’t actually need cheaters. In fact, removing people who will abuse ambiguity is a better strat (I think) than trying to create rules that will ‘hem in’ abusers.

And you don’t have to do it with everything. You can lay all of the above out while still not mentioning that the Butchers have a demonic patron who will benefit if they can complete their goals in X…and who will get pissed if they can’t.

[Jennkryst]

Real ideas now.

So I think a way to cut down on some of the overhead is to have a Plot Bible somewhere, so when, say… the Changeling Staffer quits and a new person shows up, they now do not need to write a fresh metaplot. You have all the notes from the last one right there. You might want to change some details, but the Plot, as a whole, remains.

A Plot Staffer can also exist solely as a go-between with people when they run PRPs. How does it affect the metaplot? How does it affect NPCs? Will breaking in to rob this one house actually give them a cleverly concealed macguffin nobody new about before?

Edit for spelling, waugh

[Pyrephox]

@Jennkryst And that any staffer can access if they need to check on something that touches on the Changeling metaplot. Staff should not have ‘personal’ or ‘secret’ plots that they’re doing that other staff don’t know about!

[Jennkryst]

@Tez Yeah, but how many go ‘this is not just vague urban fantasy, this is WoD with the triat and mummies and Cain-pires and shit, just no dice’?

[Tez]

@Jennkryst said in Staff Capacity:

So I think a way to cut down on some of the overhead is to have a Plot Bible somewhere, so when, say… the Changeling Staffer quits and a new person shows up, they now do not need to write a fresh metaplot. You have all the notes from the last one right there. You might want to change some details, but the Plot, as a whole, remains.

A Plot Staffer can also exist solely as a go-between with people when they run PRPs. How does it affect the metaplot? How does it affect NPCs? Will breaking in to rob this one house actually give them a cleverly concealed macguffin nobody new about before?

Edit for spelling, waugh

I definitely agree about a plot bible. For all its many, many flaws this was something that Firan at least BEGAN to try to address in my time there by putting SOME of the secrets / stories on their wiki, behind wizlocks.

Some.

Mostly they were still bad at it.

I know that this has killed multiple major plotlines for people on Arx, as another GM-intensive story game with secrets, when a staffer left and as a result plots ended up suspended because of that.

Documentation is hard and more work, of course. Always. For everything.

I heard someone say nice things about Shattered plot documentation recently. CALLING ON @Tat and whoever else does that IDK. TAT WHO DOES THAT.

[Faraday]

People point to the staff tools and FS3 design in Ares as like: “This enables folks to run games with fewer staff,” and while that’s true, it’s backwards. Ares and FS3 were designed the way they are because games, including my own, were having trouble finding and keeping staff.

I personally experienced too many cases of staff blowups or abandonment through the years, some of which harmed relationships with friends. So for the last decade or so, I run games myself. That means not only do I need tools to support that (see: Ares and FS3), I need game design to support that. So generally I stick to single-sphere, PVE, narrowly-focused games. ETA: Also with de-centralized storytelling like @L-B-Heuschkel described.

[Tez]

@Faraday said in Staff Capacity:

That means not only do I need tools to support that (see: Ares and FS3), I need game design to support that. So generally I stick to single-sphere, PVE, narrowly-focused games.

Highlighting an underlooked but super important aspect that I super agree with bc upvoting you isn’t powerful enough.

[Jennkryst]

Someone DM me later about kit-bashing WoD into Dresden FATE because I just had a dumb idea.

Back to staff capacity fixes, we could also, and this is a dangerous idea here… trust players won’t metagame too hard with the knowledge of secret behind the scene machinations.

JOKES ASIDE

I’m still hyped on Roster Games, because it addresses something a lot of MUs, and even some TTRPGs, forget: character creation is supposed to be a collaborative process. MU NPCs are not tailor built to the players (they can’t be)… but there should definitely be a ‘how can you connect to the NPCs or other PCs in the world?’ process that it feels like most games eschew, beyond the Wanted BB.

And rosters come with baked-in connections and plot hooks and goals.