Banning Bad, Actually?

[Pavel]

We’re like this close > < to prescribing general behavioural standards, again.

[Wizz]

@Faraday said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

Various folks in the thread have made statements that indicate they don’t leave grace to ensure it’s more than an isolated incident. That even a single remark they deemed “rude” was enough to warrant a ban. I’m too tired to go and find the exact quotes, but it was pretty clear to me.

I’ll admit that this is true, depending on the issue. I’m actually with you more than I’ve made room to say, there are situations that I would have more grace for, but on the other hand others I definitely have less, and (omg shocking, I know) strangers acting like they are disproportionately entitled to my or other people’s free time is just one of those things.

there’s a line where just leaving a player hanging with no explanation becomes just as obnoxious, of course, but. it’s not measured in days, for me. there’s just not any imaginary fun time thing that’s that important.

[bear_necessities]

@Pavel I mean isn’t that just “don’t be a dick”?

Come on people, don’t be a dick. It really isn’t that difficult lol

[Pavel]

@Wizz said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

there’s a line where just leaving a player hanging with no explanation becomes just as obnoxious, of course, but.

I agree, though I would probably also posit the corollary that if you’ve already established (through word or deed) a standard and that standard is unmet, then a player is entitled to regard that as an issue. That doesn’t entitle them to be a shit about it, obviously, but perhaps a little more leeway on shittitude is understandable in those circumstances.

@bear_necessities said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

@Pavel I mean isn’t that just “don’t be a dick”?

Come on people, don’t be a dick. It really isn’t that difficult lol

Well that’s kind of yet another crux of the matter. What counts as being a dick for you isn’t necessarily going to be the same as it is for me, or for Faraday, or for whomever is running Shang, etc, etc.

My mostly facetious line about prescriptive behavioural standards is the suggestion that we’re going to have this kind of a conversation ad nauseam until and unless there’s a set, precise, prescriptive, and detailed standard of acceptable behaviour that is inviolate. Which is impossible. So we’ll have this conversation. Forever.

[bear_necessities]

@Pavel said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

So we’ll have this conversation. Forever

I mean you could say that about every conversation we have on this forum, pretty sure we just go around in circles.

[Yam]

Do we ever learn anything? Ever?

[Roz]

@Yam not if i can help it

[Jennkryst]

@Pavel said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

We’re like this close > < to prescribing general behavioural standards, again.

Is it going to be ‘respect the lawyer cat gavel’?

[Ominous]

@Pavel said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

Well that’s kind of yet another crux of the matter. What counts as being a dick for you isn’t necessarily going to be the same…for whomever is running Shang, etc, etc.

I suspect that being a dick or any sort of phallic object is celebrated on Shang, as is being one of the various orifices or phallus receptacles.

[Pavel]

@Ominous I think there was a guy who was quite successfully roleplaying as a… I wanna say washing machine? Something like that.

@bear_necessities said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

@Pavel said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

So we’ll have this conversation. Forever

I mean you could say that about every conversation we have on this forum, pretty sure we just go around in circles.

[Ominous]

@Yam said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

Do we ever learn anything? Ever?

Yes. I learned that a few people are actually interested in a ridiculous 3-month server surrounding the antics nobles trying to get chosen as a spouse to a head of state to be.

@Pavel said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

@Ominous I think there was a guy who was quite successfully roleplaying as a… I wanna say washing machine? Something like that.

I will say this of Shang. It may be the Mos Eisley of the MU* world, but I have encountered and heard of some the most creative RP there.

I’ve also encountered some of the worst. The place tends to house the extremes.

[Faraday]

@Yam said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

This was basically enough to get OnceWas banned. This person was freshly new. This is the most hair trigger case I can think of. He was immediately shown the door, although he was sure to kinda’ buckle down on his stance. Mild, probably, but no one wanted to deal with it.

I didn’t recall them by name, but I searched and all I could find was this post where I basically said that their attitude over a minor documentation issue was “bafflingly aggressive”. I can’t find anywhere where I said they should be banned for it? Or supported them being banned for such a thing? That doesn’t seem like something I would do, but maybe I’m forgetting some important detail.

I’m unclear of what your threshold is, as I recall you were not very approving of this behavior.

Disapproving of someone’s behavior doesn’t equate to thinking they should be banned for it. As staff, you have the authority to set boundaries. Sometimes that can be done with a coaching approach, other times you need something firmer, like:

“If you would like to try again and rework that page into something even remotely approaching a reasonable discussion of issues rather than a full-on attack, feel free. Otherwise leave. It’s that simple.” - actual Fara quote

In that specific case, the player backtracked and we had a constructive conversation. There have been other times where other players full-on apologized and we’ve gone on to have a good relationship.

There have certainly been times where I’ve given someone too many chances, but on the whole this approach has worked out well. YMMV.

[Pavel]

@Faraday Well yeah, but you’re Faraday. You can speak braille and have counted to infinity twice. You won a game of connect four in three moves.

[Gashlycrumb]

@Pavel said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

@Faraday Well yeah, but you’re Faraday. You can speak braille and have counted to infinity twice. You won a game of connect four in three moves.

Oh, the same approach has worked very well for me. And I tried to win connect-four by using tablespoons of mashed potato instead of chips.

[Pavel]

@Gashlycrumb In fairness, if someone gave me mashed potatoes I’d abandon any game of connect four in exchange.

[Yam]

@Faraday You earnestly think it’s okay for people to address others this way? To be snarky? To be dickish? To accuse someone of maliciously ignoring jobs? It’s okay for them to expect some kind of service, and when they don’t get it, deride someone’s hard work, something a game runner poured their heart into? Do you think these people can be coached into acting like a model MUSHer with a gentle warning? A second chance? A strike system? Do you think they won’t cause problems down the line?

I know you, personally, have a very long fuse. I’ve seen you tolerate a lot of bullshit. I’ve seen people be real assholes towards you and your work. It sucks. I probably lack an objective view of this, as all I have are battle scars from people that were given second, third, fourth chances.

Game runners! You don’t have to tolerate this crap. It’s 2025. It is exceptionally easy to be respectful of other people, not some insurmountable task. We’re a dwindling community. There aren’t a ton of games left where this attitude will fly anymore. These tough calls suck to make, but you either curate your playerbase, or you end up with a very specific type of game.

[Pavel]

@Yam said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

I probably lack an objective view of this

I’d even go so far as to suggest that nobody has, nor can have, a truly objective view about this (or, perhaps, anything…) but recognising and acknowledging our biases is an important part of the conversation. Your level of bullshit tolerance is low, Faraday’s is high, mine is somewhere between the two, and based on that we’d all be right (not just have the right) to remove players who exceed our specific level.

That said, there is perhaps a conversation to be had about whether people with low tolerance for bullshit should force themselves to interact with the general public, or if they should get a trusted friend/acquaintance/me to be their player relations person instead… but that’s probably beyond the scope of current discussion.

[Yam]

@Pavel Eh I’m all talk. I make sad eyes at fellow staffers to do the dirty work, and if they don’t I just scowl about the injustices of everything. This is my attempt to vent to the forum instead of a friend discord where I thrash my pals mercilessly.

[Pavel]

@Yam said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

Eh I’m all talk.

Tbh most of us are. Our ability to deal with people, good or ill, depends on so many factors (including the alignment of the planets, whether Mars is in the microwave, and whether I’ve had carbs today) that we can’t really say “Oh I’m always super tolerant and amazing” or “I’m always on a hair trigger ready to ban people for mentioning even the thought of Belgium.” But it makes forum chats more engaging.

[Faraday]

@Yam said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

You earnestly think it’s okay for people to address others this way?

What on earth did I say that makes you believe I think it’s okay for people to treat others rudely? I have said repeatedly that it is important for staff to set boundaries. All we disagree on is what form those boundaries take as a default action.

Do you think these people can be coached into acting like a model MUSHer with a gentle warning? A second chance? A strike system? Do you think they won’t cause problems down the line?

I don’t know what you mean by “these people”, because I don’t think it takes a certain kind of person to lose their temper, say something they regret, word something more confrontationally than they should have, etc. Humans are going to human.

But yes, I know with 100% certainty that some people who screw up can mend things and behave properly, because I have literally seen it happen. On many occasions.

I have also banned people! Sometimes that’s the right thing to do. Sometimes there are less drastic alternatives. I’m genuinely baffled why this is such a controversial take.

@Pavel said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

You won a game of connect four in three moves.

I’m not even sure I’ve ever won a game of connect four. Especially against my kids, lol.