Tough Calls

Pavel

@MisterBoring Quite agree. Trust, but verify the good vibes, while maintaining a readiness to just react to the bad vibes.

sao

@Tez can confirm you have had to tell my dumb ass to knock shit off and I never thought of it as a warning. Just oh god I’ve embarrassed my friend by behaving badly on her game in a perceivable way.

hellfrog

@Yam bans are cancel culture and i like to think i have healed and evolved beyond such p e t t i n e s s

PS the calls I remember struggling with the most were

a complaint about an interpersonal player relationship where one party was going against the rules/spirit of the rules of the game, but it all occurred in private off game conversations and there was a lot of ‘evidence’ to look at
it was custodius, and he was honestly not doing anything i would ban another player for, but he wasn’t doing GREAT and we were just using a lot of staff time and energy like, watching him, corralling, investigating, etc.

But also, man, lots of them are hard. A lot of times you are looking at situations where neither side is being very cash money, and you’re trying to sort out which party is in the wrong this time and if there was some provoking incident that slipped by you and just aaaaaah. This is how I got burned out beyond belief. Telling a racist or a creep or a weird liar to buzz off is easy. I find that’s maybe 30% of player management

Raistlin

Sadly, I think bans are sometimes necessary. A few years ag,o I had to ban someone I’ve gamed with and known for around 20 years. We’d run games together, we’d RPed together, we’d known each other for a long time, and I considered them a friend. They crossed more than a few lines, however, and refused to back down or take a break. So, in the end, I had to do what was best, not just for the game but also for my sanity.

Cobalt

@Yam said in Tough Calls:

I’d like to hear some experiences from staffers that have had to make the tough call to ban what they’d consider problematic players, or players that were simply not a good fit. What factored into your decision? How did you approach it? Did you consult with other staffers? Did you receive any backlash? Did you set aside time to discuss the ban with them or did you simply notify and ban? Did you issue warnings? Did it result in a healthier atmosphere, a worse atmosphere, or something else?

I know this is like five days ago, which is apparently a long time but…

Back on Haunted Memories, when I was TL of the vampire sphere, I eventually removed a player from the sphere because they were too much. I would come home from work, log in to the game, and have at least five requests from them. Often PVP requests, requests for rulings, requests for more plot, etc. Just constant stream of me, me, me, me, me.

I was constantly handling their requests, their problems, their fights with other players, their urgent needs. It got to the point where I could not get anything else done. I sat them down and said: You are taking up too much of our time, you are not a good fit for the sphere, your character is being frozen, you are free to app into any other sphere but vampire.

It didn’t go over well and I was both lauded and flamed for doing it. I still breathed a sigh of relief when I washed my hands of them.

Most of my other ‘please leave my game’ decisions were cut and try harassment or sexpest issues.

Though I do wish I had asked Spider to just the fuck off my game, when she decided to lead a player riot against me on Darkwater b/c I didn’t make Shaft the summer king.

hellfrog

I think in the realms of tough calls, it’s important to keep in mind that anything a player is throwing YOUR way, as a staffer, they are doing that and probably worse to their fellow players.

Yam

@hellfrog Yeah. You might want to be generous and lenient, but your playerbase still has to manage this person. Sometimes they manage to play around this person. Sometimes they just move on. Orrrr sometimes they get tangled up in this person’s nonsense and question why they even have this hobby.

Some thoughtful answers here, thanks gang. I always appreciate staff that take care in this regard. The wrong kind of player can absolutely kill your game, even if all they do is make your ass tired. Problem player burns your playerbase out, dead. Problem player burns YOU out, dead.

It’s true that it’s very easy to boot off someone that’s being inconsiderate. Like, it’s very easy to be considerate. Really! But it’s way harder to boot off someone that you KNOW is TRULY just having it rough and they probably shouldn’t really be on a game but here they are and now there’s problems and the OTHER side is being a bit shitty, perhaps understandably and it’s just… bleh. I don’t think people can really guard against it. Perhaps this is why I’m so eager to try to nip it in the bud in strangers.

hellfrog

@Yam Nip what in the bud in strangers? Just the general…combo of sensitivity/insensitivity that is ‘being difficult’?

I used to get a lot of shit for telling people on arx: 'people you rp with are not your friends. treat them like friendly strangers and don’t presume getting along in rp scenes means you are building real ooc bonds"

I was just in a position where I could see so many problems were the result of ‘i thought X and i were on the same page, now they have done something off-script and I am feeling HURT so their actions were done on purpose to HURT ME’

Pavel

@hellfrog That’s a hard lesson to learn, especially for us nerds with wonky brains. “If not friend, why friend shaped” might be a meme but it definitely resonates in some of my previous interactions on MUs (and in RL as well, let’s be real).

I have thankfully had the privilege of building some OOC bonds, but 99.999999% of people are like… colleagues. We work at the same RP mine, we might have a group project together, but we’re not going to the pub after the RP is done and I’m not going to write you a Christmas card.

It’s a really hard distinction to draw, especially when young.

Yam

I was just reminded by @Trashcan of the statue command. Also known as the toad command in other systems. Has anyone ever used these? What was the situation?

Cobalt

@Yam said in Tough Calls:

I was just reminded by @Trashcan of the statue command. Also known as the toad command in other systems. Has anyone ever used these? What was the situation?

I have not by the time I started mushing people were usually just IP banned via the server settings.

However, I did witness Troy using it once on someone who was spewing obscenities on TR or FC (I can’t remember which one, they were the same game anyway).

Gashlycrumb

@Tez said in Tough Calls:

That’s actually a really interesting point. You’re totally right. I would tell my friends to knock shit off in a way where it doesn’t register as a warning as such to my brain – which probably makes me more likely to do so.

I just don’t have the same sense of needing to be cautious or delicate with them, because I know that they will take what I say in the spirit in which it is intended, and change behavior.

Yep. That’s a thing.

Really it can be a major fairness issue.

If staff is a friend and we chat, I know more about the game and they know more about my PC. They’re more likely to make story that has a place for my PC.

Also, I tend to know when it’s a good time to ask them for something and when they’re tired and pissed off.

And more closely akin to what you’re saying – they might tell me to cut it out without considering it to be a ‘warning.’ They are more likely to tell me to cut it out before they wish they’d never approved me.

AND I am more likely to be permitted to tell them to cut it out without it being taken amiss. This ‘need to be cautious or delicate’ thing is, I think, largely overblown with MU staffers. You think you need to be delicate with players? Remember how delicate players feel they must be for staffers? For example, from what I see this threat was at least somewhat in response to a player asking a staffer when it’s appropriate to poke a +request, and the staffer feeling attacked because the player said their +request had been ‘ignored’ when it had, indeed, been ignored, just not for very long. Or there was the time I requested to have a conversation with a staffer where they didn’t stop responding with no warning before the discussion got anywhere, and instead of taking my point (that this was chronic and problematic) staffer appeared to be more interested in being offended at how I phrased this. And probably I couldn’t have phrased it right, because seriously, the whole damn trip is about erasing context and flattening nuance in order to feel attacked. Or feeling attacked and finding some reason to run with that feeling rather than taking a moment to give consideration to what the other person is saying rather than the ‘tone’ that is probably a blank you’re mostly filling in yourself.

Fellow players may not be your friends, but for a game to not suck, people need to at least act as if they are friendLY. This includes putting down the scepter, taking off that shiny hat, accepting that it’s not an insult when people notice that you’re not perfect, and having an ordinary conversation.

Ashkuri

@Gashlycrumb said in Tough Calls:

I requested to have a conversation with a staffer where they didn’t stop responding with no warning before the discussion got anywhere, and instead of taking my point (that this was chronic and problematic) staffer appeared to be more interested in being offended at how I phrased this

Did you think that one was gonna go over well with this person

Gashlycrumb

@Ashkuri I’m sure I didn’t imagine it would make them happy, but yes, actually.

If my RP is halted because I need some answers from a GM, and I have asked and each time the GM stops responding to the conversation before giving those answers, then yes, in a reasonable world I would be able to say, “Hey, can we have a conversation you don’t ghost so I can get this cleared up?” and have the GM recognise that I am not asking that to offend them, but because it’s a legitimate problem.

I say things like that at tabletop all the time and nobody gets into a tizzy about it. “C’mon, quiet, I can’t hear the GM answering my question,” and, “Yeah the party isn’t getting much done because you guys never actually declare an action, you just make a plan and then another plan. Do you mean to be declaring actions I’m not picking up on?” and so on. I’m actually getting pretty close to, “Could we maybe have the whole group stay at the fucking table for more than five minutes at a time?” some sessions, and I could say that, too, without drama.

What is one supposed to do on a MU? People say “vote with your feet” but honestly, I’d be hurt if one of my tabletop players left because they can’t hear me over the chatter or I keep accidentally skipping their turn, or whatever, without them first at least telling me there was a problem. Even though this implies that it’s, like, my responsibility to do something about the problem in spite of all the other work I already did to GM…

ETA: And indeed, I was bummed when players left my MU over stuff I could have/should have fixed. if I ever found out about it. Though I assumed that people usually left for other reasons.

Jumpscare

@Yam I stumbled on an old chat where I tried to help someone fit in and I grew too exhausted to continue helping. The names have been changed to the names of Neopets I’ve never heard of before today.

PEOPHIN played a character named VANDAGYRE. Here are some of VANDAGYRE’s poses, for reference.

VANDAGYRE coughs into his fist as he glances around, picking his pointer finger into his ear.
VANDAGYRE ,despite this, coughs into his hand once more, his yellow teeth being quite brazingly shown as he glances around awkwardly, “IS JUST MAYBE BUFFER, BECAUSE IS NOT KNOW HOW TO PROPERLY SAY IS THINGS.”
VANDAGYRE stares at the person, his dull eyes staring into the person’s chest as he grins, his jagged, stained teeth showing as he shouts loudly, “ME VANDA. PLACE NOT MAKE SENSE. HEAD HURT.”
VANDAGYRE looks at the person as he stares at them with an empty face, his voice still booming loudly, “IS HAVING BRAIN INJURY. HAVING HARD TIME CONTROLLING IMPULSES. IS EMBRACE INSTEAD OF TRY TO FIGHT IT. REALLY NOT BIG DEAL, VANDA NOT WANT TO MONOLOUGE ABOUT INNER HEAD BULLSHITTERY.”
~VANDAGYRE~ (IS SOMEBODY SAY OILY WRESTLING?)
~VANDAGYRE~ (VANDA LIKE THROW TINY PEOPLE IS MAKE FEEL WHOLE AGAIN.)
~VANDAGYRE~ (VANDA LIKE YOU IS. WILL THROW YOU ANYTIME IS FOR FREE, NO CHAGHE.)

Here’s the OOC conversation. It’s uncut aside from one section I removed for brevity and privacy, where PEOPHIN asked about the behavior of another banned player.

PEOPHIN
Hey, sorry to message-- I’ll just make this as short as I can because I don’t want to bother to much (about silent heaven).

I don’t know if it was you or someone else, but I was playing as a character that was portrayed as dumb and loud, I then had a staff reach out to me saying that I was being to ditruptive. When I tried questioning as to how my character was being disruptive in a manner that was negatively impacting other players, I didn’t recieve an answer aside from “people complained”.

I don’t see what I did being against the rules anywhere, and I didn’t recieve any explanation when I tried to probe as to exactly why. I did things like talk in all caps and generally be big and dumb with his statements, but I feel it was at least a little unfair that I was literally told to stop without being given any additional information when I tried asking.

Sorry to bother. I can give more information if you want. If you don’t want to respond that is compeltely fine and I understand. It just overall does not sit right in my tummy and I feel I had a good, humerous character going, and any possible development I could have had was completely wiped away without a thought. (I don’t normally like talking about these things, I usually just move on if it ever happens, but it really didn’t sit right with me. Again, sorry to bother.)

JUMPSCARE
Hi there!

I’ve looked into this.

Your behavior as VANDAGYRE was described as trolling, over the top, and especially hard to RP with, as well as disruptive over the winds.

When asked to tone it down or refine the character, you responded with, “If what I’m not doing right now is not okay I’d prefer to just make a new character if that’s alright. His whole gimmick is to be loud and disruptive.”

This preference was honored. VANDAGYRE was stored, and you were notified that you were allowed to create a new character.

PEOPHIN
Can you tell me how it was supposed to be trolling or hard to rp with?

I tried asking about it, because the only thing I agree with was that is the over the top (intentionally).

and just to be clear, I was specifically only told to “be less distruptive”, and I didn’t receive any explanation as to what that meant. When he was talking over the winds, he was genuinally expressing interest in something he heard, and complimenting somebody. Maybe I’m misunderstanding what is meant by disruptive, because at least over the winds, he was just talking how he talks (I did use him in all caps, but again that is intentional, and if that was the issue of using it specifically in winds, it wasn’t mentioned to me at all specifically).

I had numerous interactions that felt pretty filled out-- I took his over-the-top nature and bounced off of other characters, etc.

The way I see it-- the character isn’t troll, but he is meant to be comedic and not taken seriously. I’m just confused, because it seems like playing a character that is meant to not be taken seriously isn’t allowed-- I made strides to make sure that he wasnt disruptive when talking to people, he didn’t just blab on in the winds, etc. I feel like there’s a big misrepresentation of his actions and I’d appreciate it if it were adressed, if possible. This whole situation, as a new player to the game, just feels like its meant to make me want to leave because it feels like I was bullied out of what could be a good and fun character concept.

JUMPSCARE
I can’t tell you how; I’m just relaying how players who played with your character felt. Hopefully you’ll be able to reflect on that. You’ve shown here that you understand the ways that you were disruptive and over the top.

Ultimately, that iteration of VANDAGYRE was not a good fit for Silent Heaven.

PEOPHIN
It feels, very unfair though, considering I put effort in and have tried telling you I think that a lot of those things (not all) are misunderstandings. Are there not characters in Silent Heaven that are humerous and made to be jokes but took time for people to get used to? The way I see it, people saw a humerous character that was over the top, immedietly thought it was a troll, and complained. It feels unfair that staff reached out to me instead of probing further or to find solutions, it really just feels like people are trying to chase away a new player here.

I’m sure there are over the top or disruptive characters that exist, so I am confused why this specifically is not being allowed. And for people that felt that is was trolling, I’d like to itterate that I actually put noticeable effort into scenes and his mannerisms-- I had details that most trolls would not, etc.

JUMPSCARE
There are not over-the-top or disruptive characters.

You’ve been given multiple options. But it feels like you’re rejecting all of them. What do you specifically want?

PEOPHIN
It feels like the only true option I’ve been given is “make a new character”. When I keep asking about being less disruptive, I’m not getting a definitive answer on what exactly that means, so I am confused, admittingly.

I would prefer to play a dumb (likely brain damaged) and loud character who rushes headfirst into things, who is obnoxious and meant from a OOC perspective to be taken as a joke, while still having serious moments as it happens in rp. Is there a way for that to be okay?

There’s things I can obviously change like, conveying loudness in ways that isnt talking in all caps, not using all caps over winds, etc. But At least for the main parts (being obnoxious, loud, etc), I’d just like to know if playing a character like that is possible.

JUMPSCARE
The option to refine VANDAGYRE was a true option also! Hence why I said “that iteration of VANDAGYRE” was not a good fit for Silent Heaven.

I try to say exactly what I mean so that there’s no confusion from implied meanings. Such as the above.

Your suggestions are all fine; you simply have to remember that what makes a character like that good is if you’re playing it in a way that’s fun for the other players and not frustrating. It means putting a lot more emphasis in writing for the other players than for yourself.

At this point, I’d suggest remaking with a character who’s a little more down-to-earth. More emphasis on prose instead of trolly emotes. Then you can revisit VANDAGYRE after you’ve played a character and have a good feel for the vibes here.

PEOPHIN
I’m glad you’re saying that part about the options now, but at least at the time, I basically had my character boxed and when I tried talking out solutions, I couldn’t @gm, and the person that moved me left my room, so any potential to change things there and make it simple felt like it just… got halted.

I still want to make a character with those traits that I listed, is that possible? What I don’t understand about the emote comment, is that he had plenty of times where he was simply doing things like putting his hand on someone to facilitate a greeting, would make facial expressions to show how he feels, etc, which I feel are not trolly emotes at all and showed the character is fine.

And for a BIG example to just be clear of why I think VANDAGYRE was an example of writing for other characters despite his qualities: there was a scene where someone asked about his yelling, and instead of going into a long monolouge about his upbringing, I decided to make it fit his character more by him literally saying he dosen’t want sit there and blab to people in a monolouge, which I felt really made it clear that the focus was still about making a good story, not to just have a silly gimmick character and let it be just that.

I don’t know if you read most of my emotes, but I included things that made it clear he was defintely not trolly, such as him reacting when someone praised him (in detail), how he processes numerous people, how he deals with being told things, etc.

And also, sorry to draw this out so much. I just want to know if with those qualities I listed, making a character like that is possible. I am like, 90% sure the traits I listed would actually be fun to interact with, given that most characters are by nature serious, and having a character to rely on that is honest, yet not all mentally there can make for a good concept to latch to.

I’d like to add that normally I play my cutesey, happy characters, but I’d like to make this work if possible

JUMPSCARE
I appreciate you writing all of that out.

At this time, you may create a down-to-earth character. If you don’t want to, you don’t have to.

I need to attend to other players now. Thank you.

PEOPHIN
Damn, that hurts. I wish you would just let me try to make it work and show you it can be an overall benefit, but alright.

This feels, really shitty, especially considering I’m a new player, but I understand you got other people to deal with, I just hope you can return to this when you have time.

PEOPHIN, 2 days later
Hey, if it’s not to much to ask, could you have someone take my character out of the UFO room or whatever it’s called? I’d like to run with it and just fix some of the things we talked about if that’s alright, please

JUMPSCARE
Hi there! Give me a bit and I’ll be able to do that.

PEOPHIN
Thank you very much , also sorry to bother so much about it.
I think people will like it and it’ll be fun, they’ve just gotta give it a chance before judging

And just to be clear-- I guess I’d be fine making a different character, but I really want to make like a goofy, funny one that can get a laugh out of myself and people. I see that idea with VANDAGYRE, however I don’t really know a lot about the disquise mechanic, but I’m thinking I could just make a character with that and have them do wacky stuff too, again I’m just not sure because I’m new and reading HELP only helps me so much.

My only issue, is I don’t want to run VANDAGYRE, then get admin bonked and told to change without someone actually hearing me out and having a discussion. I don’t like having opinions stuffed down my throat and being forced or told to change something that I think is unfair without a proper, full discussion.

JUMPSCARE
I’m always amenable to hearing people out. It doesn’t always mean that I’ll accept it, because my interests are solely in line with protecting the community from grief.

I will always choose to run a smaller game with minimized grief than a larger one with uncontrolled grief. Please keep that in mind as you return to the game.

VANDAGYRE is back in his private room. Please rewrite his backstory, and also tone down his goofiness. Focus on roleplaying and integrating into the world instead of pulling people out of it with the tonal shift of VANDAGYRE’s previous appearance.

PEOPHIN
Right-- would it be okay if you could tell me what is wrong with running a goofy character in a serious setting? I’m sure that it’s possible to integrate into the world even with a goofy character as long as it’s done properly, is that not okay here? I have heard characters referencing other people that are similar to VANDAGYRE in acting, so I’m struggling to see the problem if it’s done right.

Because I can assure you, I think it is quite easy to run a character that is meant to be goofy, but still have serious, realistic actions with that character that come from their worldview and experiences. I can, quite easily run a goofy character that is not griefing and still focuses on roleplaying and integrating into the world, is that not okay?

I had good interactions with a character named OGRIN, if you really think that the type of character I’m trying to run is problemematic you could just ask them, because I think we had some actual good roleplay that showed VANDAGYRE can integrate into roleplay just fine despite his goofy, not-so-there nature.

JUMPSCARE
OGRIN was one of the ones who expressed that VANDAGYRE needed a nudge in the right direction.

It’s very possible that Silent Heaven just isn’t the right game for you, and there’ll be another game that’ll better cater to the style of RP you enjoy.

PEOPHIN
I agree with that sentiment, he needs a change in the right direction. But you are, basically telling me that running a goofy character is not allowed, and I’m curious as to why.

I’m fine with changing parts of him-- like making it more refined. After all, it was my first day there so obviously there’s going to be some things to work out, like some of the things I mentioned that we mutually agreed should be changed.

What is wrong with running a goofy character in this setting if done properly? I noticed other characters referencing a name of someone similar to my own goofy character to compare, so surely there are some that are considered goofy already. Instead of refining the goofiness to make it work, why are you trying to get me to change it completely?

Is the idea of a mentally deranged, dumb, snappy, and happy character something that isn’t generally allowed here, even if done correctly?

If that’s not what you see with him right now that’s fine, but that is the intent, of course the first time implementing it is gonna need polishing

JUMPSCARE
I’m sorry. I feel like this conversation is taking up yet more of my time with no progress forward. I’ve given you more than enough guidance, and I’ve tried in many ways to convey that that’s not a good character concept for a first character. I’m no longer continuing with this back-and-forth.

At this point, I’m storing VANDAGYRE again and disinviting you from Silent Heaven.