The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)
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@Pavel
I’m saving this along with my MSB banning screen shot.My goal is both to leave these for my next-of-kin to find one day, and for them to a non-MUSH person to whom this will never be explained.
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I’ll actually even answer that one. The dice code isn’t deciding anything, it’s telling you the result of dice. Players can chat about the result and decide to do something else if they so choose. Generally the result is obeyed, but there’s agency there to negotiate exactly what a dice result means.
As it was described, the assault code forced the assault. You weren’t forced to RP it, but you were forced to have had assault happen to your character. No discussion, no negotiation, no wiggling. Your character was assaulted. No choice, no decision, no nothin.
ETA: Code should guide roleplay; it should not absolutely decide anything.
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I was talking to a buddy today and I think one of the reasons I am uncomfortable with what can feel like the sanitization of themes is because there is so much external pressure in the real world that threatens to sanitize […] Sexual content in general, when you look at payment processors.
There is generally a cultural pushback whenever things head too far in a certain direction. I personally think the sexual liberation movement peaked with Gen X & Millennials.
I don’t trust anyone who believes in any kind of extremes. All of life is nuanced and shades of grey. You can have too much of a good thing. All or nothing radical thinking is something I consign to my 20s. You can have too many cats. You can add too much garlic. You can have too much sexual liberation.
My generation grew up with Sex and the City, American Pie, and widely available internet porn which, I recall on first inquisitive viewing, being genuinely baffled to even try and comprehend how the depicted acts were physically possible. And in all candour, I don’t think my life has been terribly enriched by gaining this knowledge.
We grew up with Cool Girl before it had the name Cool Girl; this idea that a person (but especially a woman) is invalid unless they perform extreme sexuality without limits.
Within this framework, a person is not a person, they are parts. They do not have wants and needs, they have status to earn and prove. I do not see that as “sex positive”, I see that as a broken and fragmented understanding of sexual identity as a kind of fashion accessory, much like stiletto heels, displayed even if it hurts, and existing separate from the actual person.
I am strongly of the opinion that these dynamics play out in online games and communities as well. I’ve seen them play out on Haven, IRE games (the latter of which I played mostly while underage, and were not marketed as “sex games”), and even the chillest and most expertly run MUSHes I’ve played.
I think it is blind to ignore the ways in which these experiences can cause real harm to players, both through other players and their own choosing. A couple examples:
- A player writes a fantasy in which his adult character engages in incest with an underage character. This is repeatedly training his mind to associate sexual desire and arousal with the fantasy of an underage family member. It’s not his fault if these fantasies already lay dormant, but it is his fault and his choice to reinforce and further explore them. I cannot be convinced that this is unlikely to cause future harm to his ability to maintain an appropriate view and relationship with his own underage family members.
- A game has a skewed gender ratio, more female than male. Because of this, male characters are in high demand by partner-seeking heterosexual female characters. This gives the players of male characters an advantage to pit female characters against each other in competition. It encourages the players of female characters to seek to prove themselves sexually above other female characters, to settle for unequal nonmonogamous arrangements, to ignore mistreatment by the players of male characters, to alter their characters and storytelling for male approval, and to blur IC/OOC boundaries in order to retain their attention. I cannot be convinced that a male-led harem on this game can truly be assumed to be fully consensual, on the part of potentially lonely players using this game as a source of self-esteem and validation, or that it fosters healthy dynamics. I don’t think it’s good for men to ride this kind of ego trip, and I don’t think it’s good for women to vicariously experience this erosion of self through a sexual fantasy that isn’t even really her own.
None of this is to say that sexual RP should be disallowed or even discouraged. I engage, have engaged, and will continue to engage in graphic sexual RP.
But I personally try to be incredibly mindful of the ways that sexual RP can cause harm both to myself and others. I try to notice unhealthy dynamics, some of which spark concern, others anger and moral disgust, because I’ve been on the receiving end and know firsthand the profound degree of psychic damage they can cause. It would absolutely kill me, were I staffing any kind of game, to imagine that my action or inaction had caused that kind of harm to someone else.
I’m not just worried about children. The players of online roleplaying games tend to originate from a baseline crop that, IME, is on average more neurodivergent, less mentally and emotionally stable, less romantically/sexually successful in real life, etc., and that creates a fertile ground for exploitation and abuse. I’m not at all comfortable with anyone who washes their hands of having to ever think about that by simply saying, “they’re adults”. I’m especially concerned when game staff say stuff like this, because it makes me wonder how they handle parasocial attachment from their players, when in a position of power.
And again, this is not to say that SA RP specifically should be allowed or disallowed, etc. But it is to say that I very strongly reject any kind of blasé attitude that it is always acceptable so long as it occurs between adults and is technically consensual. Nothing is, IMO.
Consent is a lot more complex than many people here are giving credit. Consent is not a moral blank cheque or a get out of jail free card. If you harmed someone, you harmed them. You can also harm yourself. It’s not magically fine regardless of surrounding context just because they nodded and said, “harder daddy” while clearly bleeding.
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@Kestrel I am confused on what the difference is here between, say, someone who rps sexual assault and someone who writes fiction that includes sexual assault. If someone writes a seven book series that includes multiple instances of non consent or otherwise problematic behavior, does that mean there’s a reasonable suspicion that person engages in or wants to engage in that behavior in their real life?
If not, is the difference the involvement of another person? Does it become something that needs addressing if an author includes another author in brainstorming or writing?
What’s with the assumption that anyone who participates in graphic rp is doing it for their direct gratification and building pathology?? Because that’s just not reliably the case. I see you said your issue is the ‘blase attitude’ that it’s ok if there’s consent, but what’s the alternative? I don’t understand the consequence that’s desired.
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A game has a skewed gender ratio, more female than male. Because of this, male characters are in high demand by partner-seeking heterosexual female characters.
Bold of you to assume this is a ‘women will fight over men’ as opposed to ‘women who are into women and hurray for more options’.
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@hellfrog said:
What’s with the assumption that anyone who participates in graphic rp is doing it for their direct gratification and building pathology?? Because that’s just not reliably the case. I see you said your issue is the ‘blase attitude’ that it’s ok if there’s consent, but what’s the alternative? I don’t understand the consequence that’s desired.My reading of Kestrel’s whole spiel is that it’s important to look at the big picture of what you’re doing and examine if what you’re doing is harmful to yourself or others on a case by case basis. Not that, like, all sexual RP is self-harm.
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Maybe the safest and most sensible way to enjoy story-rich CNC RP is to just do it on a game that forbids it, but behind a closed door, in a private room that can’t be spied on, and contrive a reason to never tell anybody IC or OOC.
I know you mean that as a joke, but please never do that. The amount of times I’ve had to review logs to fix bugs only to stumble upon policy violations is already more than I wish it was.
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My reading of Kestrel’s whole spiel is that it’s important to look at the big picture of what you’re doing and examine if what you’re doing is harmful to yourself or others on a case by case basis. Not that, like, all sexual RP is self-harm.
So the issue is other peoples’ cavalier attitudes towards their own self-examination of their motives and behavior? Internally?? Because previously she stated she wanted it in the setting, but not - involving pcs, I guess? Which begs a lot of questions, and assumptions, and questions about the assumptions.
And maybe a little alarm at the assumption one can diagnose a stranger by a behavior that may be an indicator of a possible problem or may be completely harmless.
ETA Obviously everyone can and should make informed choices about what they are comfortable dealing with. I pretty famously completely outlawed SA as a story beat on the last game I staffed for that very reason.
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@hellfrog said:
So the issue is other peoples’ cavalier attitudes towards their own self-examination of their motives and behavior? Internally?? Because previously she stated she wanted it in the setting, but not - involving pcs, I guess? Which begs a lot of questions, and assumptions, and questions about the assumptions.And maybe a little alarm at the assumption one can diagnose a stranger by a behavior that may be an indicator of a possible problem or may be completely harmless.
no?
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If they’re consenting adults, the harm is entirely their responsibility. If I am one of those consenting adults, then the harm is my responsibility; otherwise, it is not. If I am staff (heaven forfend) and it is revealed that consent is not genuine (for any of the usual sexual-crime related reasons) then it becomes my problem.
But I must start from the position that continuous, enthusiastic, and explicit consent is honest, and any ensuing harm is regrettable but not punishable. There’s an assumption of risk that one takes when one engages in roleplay; adding violence, kink, horror, etc. adds to that risk. It is your personal responsibility to ensure that you don’t take on more risk than you’re capable of—harm may still happen, and it is unfortunate. To my mind, your being harmed does not always mean someone is liable or responsible. Sometimes harm just happens.
ETA: This isn’t an absolute statement, there are nuances and everything’s subjective, but I’m mostly pushing back on the vibe that we have to be responsible for everyone else at all times.
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