The SA In Games Thread (Good Luck)
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Maybe the safest and most sensible way to enjoy story-rich CNC RP is to just do it on a game that forbids it, but behind a closed door, in a private room that can’t be spied on, and contrive a reason to never tell anybody IC or OOC.
I know you mean that as a joke, but please never do that. The amount of times I’ve had to review logs to fix bugs only to stumble upon policy violations is already more than I wish it was.
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My reading of Kestrel’s whole spiel is that it’s important to look at the big picture of what you’re doing and examine if what you’re doing is harmful to yourself or others on a case by case basis. Not that, like, all sexual RP is self-harm.
So the issue is other peoples’ cavalier attitudes towards their own self-examination of their motives and behavior? Internally?? Because previously she stated she wanted it in the setting, but not - involving pcs, I guess? Which begs a lot of questions, and assumptions, and questions about the assumptions.
And maybe a little alarm at the assumption one can diagnose a stranger by a behavior that may be an indicator of a possible problem or may be completely harmless.
ETA Obviously everyone can and should make informed choices about what they are comfortable dealing with. I pretty famously completely outlawed SA as a story beat on the last game I staffed for that very reason.
fr fr
(she/her) -
@hellfrog said:
So the issue is other peoples’ cavalier attitudes towards their own self-examination of their motives and behavior? Internally?? Because previously she stated she wanted it in the setting, but not - involving pcs, I guess? Which begs a lot of questions, and assumptions, and questions about the assumptions.And maybe a little alarm at the assumption one can diagnose a stranger by a behavior that may be an indicator of a possible problem or may be completely harmless.
no?
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If they’re consenting adults, the harm is entirely their responsibility. If I am one of those consenting adults, then the harm is my responsibility; otherwise, it is not. If I am staff (heaven forfend) and it is revealed that consent is not genuine (for any of the usual sexual-crime related reasons) then it becomes my problem.
But I must start from the position that continuous, enthusiastic, and explicit consent is honest, and any ensuing harm is regrettable but not punishable. There’s an assumption of risk that one takes when one engages in roleplay; adding violence, kink, horror, etc. adds to that risk. It is your personal responsibility to ensure that you don’t take on more risk than you’re capable of—harm may still happen, and it is unfortunate. To my mind, your being harmed does not always mean someone is liable or responsible. Sometimes harm just happens.
ETA: This isn’t an absolute statement, there are nuances and everything’s subjective, but I’m mostly pushing back on the vibe that we have to be responsible for everyone else at all times.
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I’m just sort of confused, what’s the end game here in a game that enables this? Your character becomes a pariah and known as the person who rapes people and is now on the short-list for an early retirement/character death?
I’m just not really sure what’s gained here RP wise, what is the interesting story? This isn’t an episode of Law and Order SVU where the rapist is thrown in jail and forgotten about and a new episode airs next Sunday, it’s a character played by someone.
Just looking to media, the category of redeemed rapist is really not a well explored space because no one is interested in them being redeemed. Redeemed murderer? Accidentally killed someone and now you’re the town pariah? Murdered your arch enemy in cold blood and now are trying to cover the tracks? This is a lot more interesting for all characters involved.
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So the issue is other peoples’ cavalier attitudes towards their own self-examination of their motives and behavior? Internally?? Because previously she stated she wanted it in the setting, but not - involving pcs, I guess? Which begs a lot of questions, and assumptions, and questions about the assumptions.
And maybe a little alarm at the assumption one can diagnose a stranger by a behavior that may be an indicator of a possible problem or may be completely harmless.
What questions and assumptions does it beg, exactly? I think I could not have been more specific in the point I made and example I gave, so I can’t infer the gish gallop response was in good faith.
If a person derives enjoyment from writing about children engaged in graphic sexual acts, I would assume that person is a paedophile, which is not harmless.
If a person enjoys collecting members of the opposite sex, pitting them against each other in competition for their affection, and exercising control over them, I would assume that person is an abuser who does not see members of the opposite sex as complete human beings. And by the way, “it’s just my kink bro, plus they all literally consented, it was an empowering women’s movement, they asked to be my slaves!” is exactly the excuse NXIVM cult-leader Keith Raniere gave for this behaviour.
There is an obvious difference between an example I made of implied NPC abuse that takes place off-screen, and is presented for PCs to engage in the moral consequences of, versus a repeated/back-and-forth on-screen graphic sexual scene engaged in for personal gratification, with a real person’s sexual participation as a prop. Not knowing for a fact that it’s being done for immediate sexual gratification is irrelevant; firstly, because this is frequently enough the case to make a safe assumption about, and secondly because in cases of sexual abuse, it actually isn’t about climactic gratification, but about power.
I realise that a lot of posters, and especially Gen X, are traumatised from this history of slut-shaming in the hobby/IRL, but to act like the opposite extreme of unbridled sexual permissiveness doesn’t also do immense harm is blind at best, and an attitude that enables abusers at worst. Which is why a lot of puriteen Gen Z these days who grew up on Andrew Tate, Bonnie Blue, and readily available BDSM porn everywhere they look, reject that attitude so strongly. I’m somewhere in the middle both ideologically and generationally. My stance is that overcorrecting towards either extreme does harm. There should be limits, and one that was put forward earlier in this cross-thread debate
(tag removed)is definitely a good start. The consequence I’m advocating for is that game staff should not ignore the potential for harm, nor treat “consent” as a magic word that automatically absolves anyone of harm inflicted. -
@Kestrel I would suggest not tagging people into this thread given the subject matter.
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There should be limits, and one that was put forward earlier in this cross-thread debate (tag removed) is definitely a good start.
I’ll start, as I always apparently need to when this conversation comes up, by reminding all that child rape is bad and I think any game with child rape in it should be fired directly into the sun along with anyone who plays on them.
That said. There is no authority that can stop people from making games of such nature, nor any body that can stop people from playing them. So while I personally may want to put such people in very small boxes buried deep underground, I can’t. So instead, I wash my hands and say “keep them over there, away from me.” Because there’s nothing else I can do.
That is my understanding of anyone here who says the same or similar. We’re not advocates—though I would argue that if any game were advertised here with such concepts then we would be contributors—but there’s very little benefit to gnashing teeth and hand-wringing over it, so we let it go. It’s not being blase or expressing ‘unbridled sexual permissiveness’; it’s impotence.
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I’m just sort of confused, what’s the end game here in a game that enables this? Your character becomes a pariah and known as the person who rapes people and is now on the short-list for an early retirement/character death?
A couple of quick points: your reply presumes that allowing the subject means that the only way you would encounter it is with PCs as perpetuators. From what I have seen, though, even PCs as victims – on-cam or off – is not allowed. Games no longer tell these stories at all.
Just looking to media, the category of redeemed rapist is really not a well explored space because no one is interested in them being redeemed. Redeemed murderer? Accidentally killed someone and now you’re the town pariah? Murdered your arch enemy in cold blood and now are trying to cover the tracks? This is a lot more interesting for all characters involved.
There’s something to be said about the fact that we are more comfy with killing someone. This might not be the best venue for that, but there is something to be said. I will grant that we probably can’t actually speak to any victims of murder. We aren’t RPing with those people every day, while every day we are RPing with victims of SA. That does make a difference. I won’t pretend it doesn’t.
But. There’s a tension there.
she/they
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There’s something to be said about the fact that we are more comfy with killing someone.
I don’t have the time to do an in-depth literature review on the subject, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there is something of an evolutionary bias (eta: either social evolution or genetic) that influenced our sociological development. I can, for instance, easily imagine a scenario in which my killing someone is the correct moral, ethical, and legal choice.
He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
@Faraday said:
Pavel is probably right
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There’s something to be said about the fact that we are more comfy with killing someone.
I don’t have the time to do an in-depth literature review on the subject, but it wouldn’t surprise me if there is something of an evolutionary bias (eta: either social evolution or genetic) that influenced our sociological development. I can, for instance, easily imagine a scenario in which my killing someone is the correct moral, ethical, and legal choice.
Sorry, you’ve just tripped one of my special interests.
The Evolution of Desire, by David M. Buss, Chapter 6: Staying Together
Free to listen to as an audiobook with Spotify Premium
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@Tez said:
There’s something to be said about the fact that we are more comfy with killing someone. This might not be the best venue for that, but there is something to be said.I’m not unsympathetic to the view that violence in media gets a pass and sex in media doesn’t, at least in American media. I agree with this broadly speaking.
But.
I think there’s a mischaracterization here of how at least some games, including ones I’ve been a part of, draft rules around this and Social Contract type language. It’s not like rape RP is always put in its own box as the only thing anyone cares about. Sometimes it is but it’s often not. These have also included broad language on what kind of violence is and isn’t going to be involved in plots, how physical and psychological torture is handled, etc. I’ve seen red/yellow/green lights players list on their character pages becoming more common and like…some of it’s sex, some of it’s torture, some of it’s spiders.
This thread’s about sexual assault, though, so people are talking specifically about rules around SA content.
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@Tez said:
There’s something to be said about the fact that we are more comfy with killing someone. This might not be the best venue for that, but there is something to be said.I think there’s a mischaracterization here of how at least some games, including ones I’ve been a part of, draft rules around this and Social Contract type language. It’s not like rape RP is always put in its own box as the only thing anyone cares about. Sometimes it is but it’s often not. These have also included broad language on what kind of violence is and isn’t going to be involved in plots, how physical and psychological torture is handled, etc. I’ve seen red/yellow/green lights players list on their character pages becoming more common and like…some of it’s sex, some of it’s torture, some of it’s spiders.
I think the social contracts are a great way to frame out what is okay and what isn’t: PC vs NPC, on-cam vs off-cam, backgrounds or worlds or stories. I love them. I think they are a great tool. And you’re right! Games definitely break down violence in the same way.
But I was specifically addressing the point made in the post rather than social contracts and the way games break down violence and how they engage with it. I didn’t mean to characterize or speak to any game with a social contract addressing that. I was just narrowly addressing the post. Just to be clear.
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@Tez
That’s fair. This thread is, shall we say, far-reaching in what people are talking about in any given post. I’m doing my best not to engage with the broad sociological stuff, honestly, I just don’t think this is a venue where I’m going to have a conversation about it in ways that I’m going to find worthwhile, even if I might be able to do that with individual posters one-to-one. I’ve tried to keep my own thoughts on this subject to what own experiences and why I approach this content like I do in spaces I have some power over. I do think that’s important even if I don’t agree with how every game or player handles it. -
This thread is, shall we say, far-reaching in what people are talking about in any given post.
I can barely keep tense correct in my poses, you expect me to keep scale correct in my forum posts? Unreasonable!
He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
@Faraday said:
Pavel is probably right
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@Pavel
LOL I didn’t mean to get judgey about anyone’s scale. Obviously some people are getting something out of it and I leave them be.I wanna be specific about the scope of my own responses, though. This is a topic I’m interested in and I think there’s been good discussion in places.
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My opinion on this is pretty simple: I don’t see a need for sex in my RP (I much prefer stories about solving mysteries, fighting bad guys, and disassembling corrupt social structures), so I definitely don’t see a need for SA in any of it.
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