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    Liberation MUSH

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Rough and Rowdy
    399 Posts 66 Posters 75.0k Views
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    • MourneM
      Mourne @GF
      last edited by

      @GF Haha Gnosis only expensive at CG, which is when freebie points are the most powerful thing in the game, cuz merits ARE expensive, as is so many other things…

      Wow.

      Just wow.

      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • JennkrystJ
        Jennkryst @junipersky
        last edited by

        @junipersky said in Liberation MUSH:

        @Jennkryst

        … how does… I can’t… what the…

        So, in nWoD 2e/CoD/God Machine/whatever you choose to call it, you can opt to upgrade a normal failure into a critical failure, for XP.

        Tangentially related to that, if you critically fail a willpower roll when resisting Lunacy (the OH SHIT THAT IS A WEREWOLF IT WANTS TO EAT ME roll to not shit your pants), congratulations, something something spirit energy something something latent DNA something you are now a Wolf-blooded.

        I think you can also be born one? I dunno.

        I am almost positive that pre-first change Werewolves are still counted as Wolf-blooded, and they got rid of Metis/Lupus of oWoD and Spirit Children of nWoD 1e, so Werewolf/Werewolf pairings can produce Wolf-blooded children (who can later first change).

        They also went full Lunar Exalted and added the gender bending power so babies for everyone if you want. Or not.

        Anyway, back to the point, when you become a Wolf-blooded, you get a Tell. One of them is aformentioned Third Nipple, which creates a point of Essence (the Mana/Blood equivalent for Werewolves/spitits) that can be milked out every so often.

        Mummy Pun? MUMMY PUN!
        She/her

        juniperskyJ 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • JennkrystJ
          Jennkryst @GF
          last edited by

          @GF said in Liberation MUSH:

          @Mourne I was in the middle of reading it when it was deleted. I think they were saying something about Gnosis only being expensive at CG, but I didn’t have time to read it all, so I don’t know if they thought it was relevant to my joke about nipples equating to Gnosis or what.

          Gnosis is demonstrably CHEAPER in chargen actually. I have a whole chart on xp costs because I absolutely LOATHE the freebie and dot-based chargen maths.

          Mummy Pun? MUMMY PUN!
          She/her

          MourneM 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • juniperskyJ
            junipersky Administrators @Jennkryst
            last edited by

            @Jennkryst brain explosion

            JennkrystJ 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • JennkrystJ
              Jennkryst @junipersky
              last edited by

              @junipersky Yup.

              WoD is weird and sometimes it’s actually worth dealing with all the other problematic bullshit that comes with the game by default, even before specific games make it tricksier.

              Mummy Pun? MUMMY PUN!
              She/her

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              • MourneM
                Mourne @Jennkryst
                last edited by

                @Jennkryst said in Liberation MUSH:

                Gnosis is demonstrably CHEAPER in chargen actually. I have a whole chart on xp costs because I absolutely LOATHE the freebie and dot-based chargen maths.

                You’d think that, but they have custom xp charts, and things like Willpower cost more for Werewolves than it does by the book for ‘fairness’ and ‘balance’ which is completely thrown out the window, all the time… cuz Werewolves need Rage, Willpower, and Gnosis, and most everyone else doesn’t need anything but willpower or Willpower + Arete.

                It’s pretty crazy, as is the idea that things not being fair doesn’t hurt anyone. Cuz EVERYONE loves being worthless in a plot cuz someone’s friends with the ST and has a God sheet that nobody else gets access to.

                EvilgraysonE 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • EvilgraysonE
                  Evilgrayson @Mourne
                  last edited by

                  @Mourne Willpower costs the same for everyone. It’s not brilliant, but eh.

                  MourneM 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • MourneM
                    Mourne @Evilgrayson
                    last edited by

                    @Evilgrayson And? Again, not everyone needs 3 power stats. Werewolves do.

                    TaikaT EvilgraysonE 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • TaikaT
                      Taika @Mourne
                      last edited by

                      @Mourne This one probably gets filed under ‘trying to balance different splats against each other is an act of futility’. It’s impossible.

                      W 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • JennkrystJ
                        Jennkryst
                        last edited by

                        Everyone is ignoring the REAL question about shifters here, and that question is DINOSAURS AND/OR SNEKS OPEN WHEN?!?

                        Mummy Pun? MUMMY PUN!
                        She/her

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                        • W
                          Warma Sheen @Taika
                          last edited by

                          @Taika said in Liberation MUSH:

                          @Mourne This one probably gets filed under ‘trying to balance different splats against each other is an act of futility’. It’s impossible.

                          If this could be done, it would have happened by now. WoD has done through many different versions over a lot of years. If this was supposed to be a thing, it would have happened by now.

                          TaikaT 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • TaikaT
                            Taika @Warma Sheen
                            last edited by

                            @Warma-Sheen Yeah. The complaint was that WW needs 3 things (gnosis, rage, willpower) and no one else does.

                            Which is why I pointed out that trying to perfectly balance everything in a multi-splat game like Lib is impossible. Cause it is. You can’t make everything fair, and often times, HR’ing creates more imbalances than running by the book does. Or HR’s can become this gigantic, spaghetti monster of nesting HR’s and a nightmare to navigate. ^.^

                            W 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • W
                              Warma Sheen @Taika
                              last edited by

                              @Taika What I don’t understand is why anyone thinks that ‘fair’ is supposed to apply ICly to any WoD theme, old or new. The idea that nature has inherently balanced its world-breaking monsters is just plain silly. The games were never meant to balance with each other with their own systems. The developers have said it repeatedly. That’s why they haven’t done it. The ‘fair’ part of playing WoD is that you know what your splat is going into it and if you don’t want to play that, you don’t play it and you pick something else.

                              And yeah, the more HRs that are put in, the more complex everything becomes. There have been few HRs necessary in all the decades I’ve played. The most relevant are HRs that create brand new systems that aren’t included in the books. Other than that 90% of the time, you’re either trying to fix something that is too broken to be fixed or you’re just breaking more stuff, but in different ways.

                              TaikaT 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                              • TaikaT
                                Taika @Warma Sheen
                                last edited by Taika

                                @Warma-Sheen 100%. I would rather spend time making story than chasing down things to HR and fixing the things the HR breaks.

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                                • EvilgraysonE
                                  Evilgrayson @Mourne
                                  last edited by

                                  @Mourne Yes, werewolves have three power stats. Those three power stats are also rather cheaper than other peoples’ power stats under rules as written - and Willpower affects so much across the various game lines that if they’re going to make it more expensive, eh. It’s better than saying ‘I know it goes up to ten but you’ll have to write a novel to justify buying it up to five and even then we’re probably going to turn you down’ like so many other games have done.

                                  MourneM 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • MourneM
                                    Mourne @Evilgrayson
                                    last edited by

                                    @Evilgrayson said in Liberation MUSH:

                                    @Mourne Yes, werewolves have three power stats. Those three power stats are also rather cheaper than other peoples’ power stats under rules as written - and Willpower affects so much across the various game lines that if they’re going to make it more expensive, eh. It’s better than saying ‘I know it goes up to ten but you’ll have to write a novel to justify buying it up to five and even then we’re probably going to turn you down’ like so many other games have done.

                                    I’m just not capable of agreeing with that. It’s a stance so alien to me that there is no way I am going to see eye to eye with it.

                                    Rage: 1 freebie per point. (Starting at 1-5 based on Auspice)
                                    Willpower: 1 freebie per point. (Starting at 3 generally with some outliers due to Tribe)
                                    Gnosis: 2 freebies per point. (Starting at 1-5 based on Breed)

                                    Everyone else:

                                    Willpower: 2 freebies per point. (Starting at 1-5 based on Courage generally)

                                    So let’s just make it so most shifters (A couple don’t have rage) have to pay 2 freebies per point, on 2 power stats out of 3 instead of 1 power stat.

                                    It’s not inherently better at all, because instead of saying ‘Provide reason which we may or may not accept’ it’s just an arbitrary kick in the face if I don’t like you. If anything, it’s /the exact same thing/. Both are bad staffing decisions. Neither are good ways to even attempt to handle the thing.

                                    I am so confused how there is so much kickback to the idea of everyone operating on the same ruleset is a ‘Bad Thing™’. Fairness is an integral thing we look for in good staffing.

                                    This is the bad place

                                    PavelP EvilgraysonE 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                    • PavelP
                                      Pavel @Mourne
                                      last edited by

                                      @Mourne said in Liberation MUSH:

                                      Fairness is an integral thing we look for in good staffing.

                                      Sure. But staffing and game design are different things.

                                      We expect to be treated fairly as people by staffers. Splats are not designed to be fair.

                                      Each kind of thing (vampire, wolf, whatever else) are, in effect, different games. If you want everyone to follow the same mechanical rules, then they should all play the same mechanical game.

                                      He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
                                      BE AN ADULT

                                      MourneM 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                      • MourneM
                                        Mourne @Pavel
                                        last edited by

                                        @Pavel I am so confused by this statement. The whole discussion, such as it is, is about people modifying the rules and hamstringing some people while giving other people free things arbitrarily.

                                        Creating a complete lack of fairness within the same sphere or splat or however you want to say it.

                                        P PavelP W 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                        • P
                                          Pyrephox Administrators @Mourne
                                          last edited by Pyrephox

                                          @Mourne said in Liberation MUSH:

                                          @Pavel I am so confused by this statement. The whole discussion, such as it is, is about people modifying the rules and hamstringing some people while giving other people free things arbitrarily.

                                          Creating a complete lack of fairness within the same sphere or splat or however you want to say it.

                                          That part is sheer social engineering. It’s the game saying, “Look, we really want you to play THIS concept, so we’re going to weight things towards that end in the explicit hope that you will choose to take advantage of the bennies. If you really WANT to play this-concept-we-don’t-really-want then we aren’t going to stop you, but we’re letting you know that you’re choosing to take a mechanical disincentive to do so.”

                                          A lot of games have done this at various times, whether it’s “we want people who grew up in this town so you get bonus XP for chargenning a native” or whatever. You might not like it or agree with it, but it’s not hugely unusual.

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                                          • PavelP
                                            Pavel @Mourne
                                            last edited by

                                            @Mourne said in Liberation MUSH:

                                            @Pavel I am so confused by this statement. The whole discussion, such as it is, is about people modifying the rules and hamstringing some people while giving other people free things arbitrarily.

                                            Creating a complete lack of fairness within the same sphere or splat or however you want to say it.

                                            So long as the mechanical disadvantage is applied equally to all of the applicable type - from what I gather, this only affects werewolves? So so long as it affects all werewolves, then it is fair. If the rule is being unequally applied (some wolves and not others, all things being equal) then that is unfair.

                                            Everything else is the unfortunate side of mechanics.

                                            He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
                                            BE AN ADULT

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