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Liberation MUSH
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@Mourne This one probably gets filed under ‘trying to balance different splats against each other is an act of futility’. It’s impossible.
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Everyone is ignoring the REAL question about shifters here, and that question is DINOSAURS AND/OR SNEKS OPEN WHEN?!?
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@Taika said in Liberation MUSH:
@Mourne This one probably gets filed under ‘trying to balance different splats against each other is an act of futility’. It’s impossible.
If this could be done, it would have happened by now. WoD has done through many different versions over a lot of years. If this was supposed to be a thing, it would have happened by now.
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@Warma-Sheen Yeah. The complaint was that WW needs 3 things (gnosis, rage, willpower) and no one else does.
Which is why I pointed out that trying to perfectly balance everything in a multi-splat game like Lib is impossible. Cause it is. You can’t make everything fair, and often times, HR’ing creates more imbalances than running by the book does. Or HR’s can become this gigantic, spaghetti monster of nesting HR’s and a nightmare to navigate. ^.^
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@Taika What I don’t understand is why anyone thinks that ‘fair’ is supposed to apply ICly to any WoD theme, old or new. The idea that nature has inherently balanced its world-breaking monsters is just plain silly. The games were never meant to balance with each other with their own systems. The developers have said it repeatedly. That’s why they haven’t done it. The ‘fair’ part of playing WoD is that you know what your splat is going into it and if you don’t want to play that, you don’t play it and you pick something else.
And yeah, the more HRs that are put in, the more complex everything becomes. There have been few HRs necessary in all the decades I’ve played. The most relevant are HRs that create brand new systems that aren’t included in the books. Other than that 90% of the time, you’re either trying to fix something that is too broken to be fixed or you’re just breaking more stuff, but in different ways.
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@Warma-Sheen 100%. I would rather spend time making story than chasing down things to HR and fixing the things the HR breaks.
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@Mourne Yes, werewolves have three power stats. Those three power stats are also rather cheaper than other peoples’ power stats under rules as written - and Willpower affects so much across the various game lines that if they’re going to make it more expensive, eh. It’s better than saying ‘I know it goes up to ten but you’ll have to write a novel to justify buying it up to five and even then we’re probably going to turn you down’ like so many other games have done.
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@Evilgrayson said in Liberation MUSH:
@Mourne Yes, werewolves have three power stats. Those three power stats are also rather cheaper than other peoples’ power stats under rules as written - and Willpower affects so much across the various game lines that if they’re going to make it more expensive, eh. It’s better than saying ‘I know it goes up to ten but you’ll have to write a novel to justify buying it up to five and even then we’re probably going to turn you down’ like so many other games have done.
I’m just not capable of agreeing with that. It’s a stance so alien to me that there is no way I am going to see eye to eye with it.
Rage: 1 freebie per point. (Starting at 1-5 based on Auspice)
Willpower: 1 freebie per point. (Starting at 3 generally with some outliers due to Tribe)
Gnosis: 2 freebies per point. (Starting at 1-5 based on Breed)Everyone else:
Willpower: 2 freebies per point. (Starting at 1-5 based on Courage generally)
So let’s just make it so most shifters (A couple don’t have rage) have to pay 2 freebies per point, on 2 power stats out of 3 instead of 1 power stat.
It’s not inherently better at all, because instead of saying ‘Provide reason which we may or may not accept’ it’s just an arbitrary kick in the face if I don’t like you. If anything, it’s /the exact same thing/. Both are bad staffing decisions. Neither are good ways to even attempt to handle the thing.
I am so confused how there is so much kickback to the idea of everyone operating on the same ruleset is a ‘Bad Thing
’. Fairness is an integral thing we look for in good staffing.
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@Mourne said in Liberation MUSH:
Fairness is an integral thing we look for in good staffing.
Sure. But staffing and game design are different things.
We expect to be treated fairly as people by staffers. Splats are not designed to be fair.
Each kind of thing (vampire, wolf, whatever else) are, in effect, different games. If you want everyone to follow the same mechanical rules, then they should all play the same mechanical game.
He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
BE AN ADULT -
@Pavel I am so confused by this statement. The whole discussion, such as it is, is about people modifying the rules and hamstringing some people while giving other people free things arbitrarily.
Creating a complete lack of fairness within the same sphere or splat or however you want to say it.
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@Mourne said in Liberation MUSH:
@Pavel I am so confused by this statement. The whole discussion, such as it is, is about people modifying the rules and hamstringing some people while giving other people free things arbitrarily.
Creating a complete lack of fairness within the same sphere or splat or however you want to say it.
That part is sheer social engineering. It’s the game saying, “Look, we really want you to play THIS concept, so we’re going to weight things towards that end in the explicit hope that you will choose to take advantage of the bennies. If you really WANT to play this-concept-we-don’t-really-want then we aren’t going to stop you, but we’re letting you know that you’re choosing to take a mechanical disincentive to do so.”
A lot of games have done this at various times, whether it’s “we want people who grew up in this town so you get bonus XP for chargenning a native” or whatever. You might not like it or agree with it, but it’s not hugely unusual.
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@Mourne said in Liberation MUSH:
@Pavel I am so confused by this statement. The whole discussion, such as it is, is about people modifying the rules and hamstringing some people while giving other people free things arbitrarily.
Creating a complete lack of fairness within the same sphere or splat or however you want to say it.
So long as the mechanical disadvantage is applied equally to all of the applicable type - from what I gather, this only affects werewolves? So so long as it affects all werewolves, then it is fair. If the rule is being unequally applied (some wolves and not others, all things being equal) then that is unfair.
Everything else is the unfortunate side of mechanics.
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@Mourne Great good gods. Just looking at the pools:
Werewolf
Rage: Freebies: 1 per point, XP: current rating per point, starts at 1-5 on Auspice
Gnosis: Freebies: 2 per point, XP: current rating x2 per point, starts at 1-5 on Breed
Willpower: By the book is Freebies: 1 per point, XP: current rating per point, starts at 3 or 4 on TribeChangeling
Glamour: Freebies: 3 per point, XP: current rating x 3 per point, starts at 4-5 on Seeming
Willpower: By the book is Freebies: 1 per point, XP: Current rating x 2 per point, starts at 4-5 on Seeming
Werewolves by the book spend less XP on Willpower than Changelings, otherwise spending on pools is pretty much even. By Liberation’s rules, they spend the same.Vampire
I don’t play Vampire, but I do know that WP is ludicrously important when resisting what a Vampire can do. Here’s some results from the internet:
Blood pool: Determined by Generation, good luck making that bigger
Willpower: Freebies: 1 per point, XP: current rating, starts at Courage
Werewolves are equally shafted for buying Willpower by Liberation’s rule. Vampire pools seem to be more static, though; they do have another power pool, but it’s not supposed to go up unless things get really interesting.Mage
Arete: Freebies: 4 per point, XP: Current rating x 8, starts at 1.
Willpower: By the book: Freebies: 1 per point, XP: current rating, starts at 5.
Werewolves by the book spend the same on WP as Mages, and are absolutely laughing when it comes to the other pools. Given how powerful Arete is, though, that’s fair. Either way, Liberation’s rule shafts the mages just as much as the wolves.Wraith
Buggered if I know. Never played it, don’t have the books. I can’t find anything about what the pools are, cost, or start at from any source that looks even vaguely official.And in the meantime, Abilities cost 1 freebie per dot up to 3 for everyone, instead of 2 per. So yes, WP costs more, but some stuff costs less across the board.
Either way, yes, Werewolves have three pools! But they aren’t expensive in the grand scheme of things. Much the same as Gifts, really. Cheap compared to anyone else’s powers, but also much more limited.
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@Mourne said in Liberation MUSH:
@Pavel I am so confused by this statement. The whole discussion, such as it is, is about people modifying the rules and hamstringing some people while giving other people free things arbitrarily.
Creating a complete lack of fairness within the same sphere or splat or however you want to say it.
Offering incentives is part of MU*s. If you consider it a “complete lack of fairness”, that’s totally up to you. And I’d agree. It isn’t fair.
Neither is the fact that different players will earn different XP amounts every day.
Neither is the fact that some people will play 5 characters on a game while some only play one or two and are privy to much more of the game plots.
Neither is the fact that some characters get more scenes from the ST than other people.
Neither is the fact that some characters have been on the game longer than others and have more XP.
Neither is the fact that some characters have been on the game longer than others and have more IC connections.
Neither is the fact that some characters have sphere STs that are more present and responsive than others.
The list goes on and on, but the point is that there’s a ton about MU* s that are a complete lack of fairness. Some things can be controlled, others cannot. But the goal of a MU* is not ‘complete fairness’. It is the full and complete game world that people are playing characters in.
If an ST sees that people are consistently avoiding a breed because the mechanical benefits of choosing something else are more appealing it is more that okay to offer incentives to balance that. Is it fair? No. But so much on a MU* is already unfair that it hardly merits consideration.
Are there better ways to go about it that could cause less absolute panic in particular players? Probably. That stuff should go on an incentive board somewhere, but their lack of proper/updated documentation has always been a problem on that game.
To each, their own, though. Personally, in terms of being problematic, I’d give this a 2/10. And only because it wasn’t identified as an issue and placed properly in an HR or on the website. There are far bigger issues with that game to be concerned with.
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@Evilgrayson said in Liberation MUSH:
Wraith
Buggered if I know. Never played it, don’t have the books. I can’t find anything about what the pools are, cost, or start at from any source that looks even vaguely official.As best I remember, they have Willpower, Pathos (the magic that fuels their powers), and Corpus (the equivalent of health but more flexible since they’re dead). Pathos is just a pool that goes up to 10 with no permanent rating. Corpus begins at 10 and you gradually lose permanent (and therefore temporary) Corpus every time you have the ghostly equivalent of a near-death experience. I forget if you can buy it back up with XP like lost Humanity for a vampire, but I think you can’t. I think the slide into Oblivion is one-way.
They also have Passions and Fetters, each of which can be up to five dots and represent the unresolved business that makes them a ghost instead of proper dead. Those determine your ability to suck up more Pathos and your ability to climb out of the Underworld. Pretty sure you can buy both with XP but it’s hella expensive because it’s kinda too late to think of more reasons to be alive after you’re dead.
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@Warma-Sheen shrugs The entire ‘problem’ was the completely arbitrary nature of how things happened.
All this focus on the points is just semantics. The problem (for me) was that the Staffer was arbitrarily powering people up, spur of the moment, in completely arbitrary fashion and it was not remotely a level playing field /at the chargen level/.
If people want to play with staff who behave that way, cool. Have fun.
It’s not a place for me.
All of this math nonsense is distracting from my initial point.
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@Mourne said in Liberation MUSH:
@Warma-Sheen shrugs The entire ‘problem’ was the completely arbitrary nature of how things happened.
Being respectful of all the players hasn’t really been a high priority for Liberation. There are a few players that matter and the rest are just background noise to fill the atmosphere. Like extras in a movie. So not a lot of care or concern goes into things like consistency and fairness.
But if you’re willing to kiss up and do a little ‘slap and tickle’ you can benefit greatly from the complete lack of fairness you’re talkin about. The more important you make yourself, the more of an edge you can get over the other players. Fairness, shmairness.
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Ironically, the only way to make WoD balanced is to yeet the whole system and write a new one, with everything using the same rules just flavored different. Easiest way that I can think of at 3am with no brain juice is… like. Dresden Files/FATE rules. Bonus points because it has social combat.
EDIT TO ADD - NOT only does it have social combat… you can bring your diplomacy dice to a gunfight and you can talk people out of combat in combat time. Or you can bring your architecture dice, use the knowledge to know how to set off the sprinkler system, and now everyone is dealing with water everywhere.
… look, games need ways for players to affect the narrative OOCly. Because lulz.
Mummy Pun? MUMMY PUN!
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@Jennkryst I’ve often wondered, at least in the case of OWoD, why MUs don’t use the LARP rules over tabletop. The LARP rules are at least slightly more balanced for a game with a large playerbase, whereas you have to inject some house rules into the tabletop version of OWoD to make it work in a large game, especially in a large game with multiple spheres. (That said, the current version of the LARP rules only supports Vampire, Werewolf (+ Other Shifters) and Changeling, so while it might work in those cases, it leaves other stuff like Mage, Wraith, and Mummy hung out to dry.)
I honestly don’t remember the LARP rules for NWoD, so I couldn’t comment on whether a similar transition would work for that.
Proud Member of the Pro-Mummy Alliance
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@MisterBoring Because dice are superior to pips and rock paper scissors
