The Rings of Power - Discussion
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@GF Well, J.R.R. Tolkien’s opinions on race were… pretty clear, I think. We don’t need to resort to necromancy or anything.
“I have the hatred of apartheid in my bones; and most of all I detest the segregation or separation of Language and Literature. I do not care which of them you think White." - JRR Tolkien, in his own words, denouncing any conscription of his stories to a specific race. -
@Arkandel In case my post came off as addressing you rather than Elon, I’d just like to clarify that now.
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ADMIN EDIT by Tez:
Removed racist content.
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@Sam-Hyde Hi! We don’t do racism here. So cut it out.
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@Pavel Oh yeah? Well, Elves suck. Fucking know-it-alls.
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On the other hand the depiction of Dwarves in this series is fucking amazing and possibly the best part of it for me. I didn’t see that coming! Disa and Durin are awesome.
Online posts trying to guess who Sauron is are so funny, too.
<literally any new character appears>
<DiCaprio meme pointing at screen> -
Durin + Elrond are amazing!
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@Arkandel said in The Rings of Power - Discussion:
Durin + Elrond are amazing!
Disa always wanted a new table.
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I’ll probably have more coherent thoughts later but I dipped by toe in over the weekend and I am hooked, in spite of myself. Seems really well-done all around.
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I gotta admit, some of the shine came off for me in the episode before last when Galadriel confronted Halbrand and was basically like, “ugh pathetic, man you’re above these commoner rags.”
I know it’s probably an incredibly silly thing to complain about considering this is Tolkien but like, the whole romantic fantasy of how noble and divine the concept of monarchy is just strikes me as gross now. Maybe I’ve just grown out of it, which doesn’t bode too well for my enjoyment of the series.
Durin and Elrond do indeed still kick ass tho.
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@Wizz I’m a bit miffed about Gil-Galad being… well, disagreeable. Not quite a villain but certainly douchey if you get my drift.
Come on. It’s this guy:
Gil-galad was an Elven-king.
Of him the harpers sadly sing;
the last whose realm was fair and free
between the Mountains and the Sea.His sword was long, his lance was keen.
His shining helm afar was seen;
the countless stars of heaven’s field
were mirrored in his silver shield.But long ago he rode away,
and where he dwelleth none can say;
for into darkness fell his star
in Mordor where the shadows are.On the other hand complaints by hardcore fans are getting absolutely ridiculous at this point. One person actually complained Numenorians are too short - why isn’t Elendil a giant?
Good luck finding a bunch of 7 foot tall good actors who fit the roles.
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@Wizz said in The Rings of Power - Discussion:
I gotta admit, some of the shine came off for me in the episode before last when Galadriel confronted Halbrand and was basically like, “ugh pathetic, man you’re above these commoner rags.”
I know it’s probably an incredibly silly thing to complain about considering this is Tolkien but like, the whole romantic fantasy of how noble and divine the concept of monarchy is just strikes me as gross now. Maybe I’ve just grown out of it, which doesn’t bode too well for my enjoyment of the series.
Durin and Elrond do indeed still kick ass tho.
I feel the same way. I’ve loved Tolkien’s world and books since my earliest memories of being able to read at all, and I’m still greatly enjoying the show, but depictions of servile adoration for fictional monarchies hits different now.
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@Kestrel
I hate when people and publications act like there’s some sort of rivalry between this and GoT or like you have to choose one over the other or whatever because that is just endlessly dumb, but I do think in this one area you could actually make the case that GoT is the better series in that on the whole it doesn’t mimic Tolkien’s weird glazed-eye fawning over feudalism like so many other fantasy series and presents it at least fairly realisticly as deeply flawed and problematic instead.I was very much the same as a kid and just took it all at face value, lol. It almost makes me wonder if that’s at least some part of why so many modern people have this rosy fondness for actual real world monarchies, just having grown up with these glowing and romantic fantasies? If even remotely true…big oofs.
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To some degree the fawning over feudalism is something I accept as a genre convention within fantasy. I won’t say it doesn’t bother me, it’s one of the things that makes me not entirely engage with the genre, but I kind of accept it going in. For all the things I dislike about A Song of Ice and Fire, Martin does undercut this in interesting ways at various points (and was quickly followed by a legion of imitators who did it less well, just like Tolkien).
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@Third-Eye I really wish that more governmental systems were explored in fantasy rather than strong-state hereditary feudalism, especially the kind that tends to downplay or eliminate the role of guilds, militaries, and cities. There were so many interesting possibilities even around the same time period that most of these fantasies draw from, and if you’re adding magic, then things should be different!
Which is not as relevant to a Tolkien adaptation, but still.
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@Pyrephox said in The Rings of Power - Discussion:
@Third-Eye I really wish that more governmental systems were explored in fantasy rather than strong-state hereditary feudalism, especially the kind that tends to downplay or eliminate the role of guilds, militaries, and cities. There were so many interesting possibilities even around the same time period that most of these fantasies draw from, and if you’re adding magic, then things should be different!
Which is not as relevant to a Tolkien adaptation, but still.
I think Sauron starts a jeweller’s guild at some point, and I’m looking forward to seeing the Apprentice style politics of Celebrimbor’s inexplicable mad scientist energy trying to get them all in line.
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@Wizz said in The Rings of Power - Discussion:
I hate when people and publications act like there’s some sort of rivalry between this and GoT or like you have to choose one over the other or whatever because that is just endlessly dumb, but I do think in this one area you could actually make the case that GoT is the better series in that on the whole it doesn’t mimic Tolkien’s weird glazed-eye fawning over feudalism like so many other fantasy series and presents it at least fairly realisticly as deeply flawed and problematic instead.
Even though I agree, I think there are two important caveats here.
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Tolkien specifically and intentionally created a world, and its stories, based on myth and legend rather than realism. He drew his inspiration heavily from great epic poems of the past which showcased outdated ideals - even for his own time.
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George Martin - and he says this himself - got to draw and write based on what other authors before him had created. For example his famous question (“Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?”) takes ‘advantage’ of the fact Middle Earth exists in the zeitgeist. When Tolkien wrote his own books there was much less he got to build on top of; he was the pioneer. Of course newer works will be rich in different aspects.
What’s interesting though is TV shows and movies shape culture much more than books can - they simply expose a greater audience to the material. In a way I’d argue, for many people, Rings of Power will become the default baseline for the Second Age than the Silmarillion ever could.
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@Arkandel said in The Rings of Power - Discussion:
Tolkien specifically and intentionally created a world, and its stories, based on myth and legend rather than realism. He drew his inspiration heavily from great epic poems of the past which showcased outdated ideals - even for his own time.
And he did this in part because he deeply despised modernism and everything that came with it, and longed for an idyllic, imaginary past. We all know he had his reasons, but there’s no real caveat there that I can see – he wrote the fantasy as much for himself as for us, an idealized feudal world, as if feudalism isn’t intrinsically awful no matter how you portray it.
Don’t get me wrong, I still love Tolkien and his works, he is undeniably one of the most influential authors of the 20th century and I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I just also really dislike that particular aspect of what he wrote and think fantasy as a genre is better off without it.
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Tolkien was a weird and complicated man. I imagine that you have to be very weird and complicated to conjure up a fantasy world as extensive as his, when in your real world, such works are viewed as entirely the purview of little children.
Politically speaking he identified as a “philosophical anarchist”, but he was also explicitly a monarchist. This makes him the only public figure I can name from history who could be described as an anarcho-monarchist, which I would otherwise believe to be purely an internet meme, because it intuitively sounds so oxymoronic. As a catholic he believed in the divine right of kings, and that the strife-filled world he lived in would be better and happier if instead of small mortal men leading others to their death in cruel and unjust wars, all people were “free” under the unified banner of a pure and just messenger of God. Service to any master other than God is unnatural, immoral and unjust. I don’t share this view at all, but I do find it entirely fascinating.
Here is one quote:
“My political opinions lean more and more to Anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs) … The most improper job of any man … is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity.” — J.R.R. Tolkien
I enjoy reminding/informing people of Tolkien’s anarchism because, aside from neatly bringing together two of my biggest passions, the “reject modernity, embrace tradition” facet of his personality has the unfortunate side-effect of drawing in a large subset of fans whom I suspect Tolkien himself would want nothing to do with, and harshly rebuke if he ever encountered. Fans like this one, to whom he responded following an inquiry as to his “aryan” heritage. And fans like the ones whose inane diatribes I’m sure we’ve all been unable to escape on any app/website that provides recommended links to the talk of the day, ever since the first promotional materials for Rings of Power have been published, featuring women in armour and anyone with evidence of melanin in their skintone. It’s a very entertaining way to make their heads explode.
I really enjoyed the recent episode, and especially the Galadriel swordfighting scene. I enjoyed it all the more imagining the amount of butthurt it must have caused to triggered boys on Twitter. I don’t think this is Galadriel as we know her, and I have ample criticisms of my own for the show, which I feel frustrated at being unable to express without presenting myself as a homing beacon for those other fans to glom onto. But I’m actually glad with a number of changes (and even ordinary casting decisions, like brown Harfoots who are supposed to be brown) that are alienating long-term fans, because frankly I don’t want to share a fandom with them anymore.
I think that to their credit — and I don’t give Amazon credit often — the makers of this show know what they’re doing and who they’re annoying, and are consciously doubling down. I just can’t picture that the Galadriel scene was filmed without everyone involved knowing exactly how it’d go down in the public eye. And, good. More of this, please. More doubling down, fewer concessions.
Regarding Halbrand, I think this fan-theory might be an interesting twist/subversion of the whole “feudalism is good actually” narrative, if it proves to be correct. Potential spoilers, though. (I think that even without clicking the link, mouseover to view the URL says enough.)
Sidebar, I really love all the bestfriendships on this show, and this is something I like about House of the Dragon too. Romantic couples are boring. Laenor + Rhaenyra, Nori + Stranger, Durin + Elrond are all my OTP. (One True Platonic.)
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@Kestrel said in The Rings of Power - Discussion:
Sidebar, I really love all the bestfriendships on this show, and this is something I like about House of the Dragon too. Romantic couples are boring. Laenor + Rhaenyra, Nori + Stranger, Durin + Elrond are all my OTP. (One True Platonic.)
I think that the world could use more stories that incorporate non-romantic relationships. Tolkien was really, REALLY good at incorporating them into his own works, and I’m glad that Rings of Power is showing that at least a little.
