MU Peeves Thread

[sao]

@Floof nooooooo weasellllllllllll

[Testament]

Not having enough time to finish a fucking application.

[SpaceKhomeini]

@Testament said in MU Peeves Thread:

Not having enough time to finish a fucking application.

Spending 3 weeks in chargen and realizing I just don’t have it in me (plus Ghost of Tsushima is finally hitting PC next month along with Homeworld 3, and it’s a non-zero chance I’ll be sucked into one of these).

Not really the same thing, but…

[Gashlycrumb]

@hellfrog said in MU Peeves Thread:

the problem is absolutely players. what’s easy and fun to spin for 6 people is probably unmanageable for 20, 30, or 100. everyone wants to take down The Man! everyone has different ideas for how to do it and wants the credit

Back in the reality of the vaguely sane, people manage this unmanagable thing regularly. They use an ancient method called “taking turns.”

Admittedly it means that you or your best buddy will have to endure times when it is somebody else’s turn. This is indeed a terrible problem caused by other players existing.

And of course it’s players that create the problem of there being too many players, by showing up, often in response to an advertisement or other form of invitation. Gamerunners who accept new PCs when they have more than they can handle are not the cause at all. It’s those ‘extra’ players who keep messing shit up with their refusal to play extras, and their entitled expectations of having their PCs be significant from time to time.

Yeah, yeah, I know, it’s a joke. Except the joke about how you spend ten hours writing an awesome adventure and the PCs immediately kill the NPC guide, pawn the McGuffin and TPK each other fighting over the profit has an amusing element of truth to it, while the BMD/MSB refrain of “the problem is players” almost always comes across to me as blame shifting rubbish.

[Pavel]

@Gashlycrumb said in MU Peeves Thread:

Back in the reality of the vaguely sane, people manage this unmanagable thing regularly. They use an ancient method called “taking turns.”

One’s milage definitely varies.

[Kestrel]

Even though this never used to be a thing, in the modern world I’m realising I basically forget that a MU* I was playing still exists if it doesn’t have a discord.

[hellfrog]

@Gashlycrumb That’s fair. But what I mean by ‘the problem is players’ is the problem is quantity of players. I love an ideal where a storyteller has consistent and balanced motivation and creativity to GM for a rotation of all the players in a game with 75 active players. Taking turns IS obviously the correct solution to my stated problem of ‘players’.

[Pacha]

I have realised that from years of playing in WoD MUSHES, I am so conditioned to staff wanting to breathe down people’s necks about every little thing that I get incredibly anxious when I see other people RPing about something my character did—even something super innocent. It brings me out in hives that someone is about to send me a shitty job to tell me I am WRONG and BAD.

I think it is nice that games are a lot more chill these days, but I think it probably speaks volumes about the general state of WoD games that my most comfortable state is to be completely under the staff’s radar because staff on a WoD game paying close attention to what you’re doing is almost universally bad.

[Sillylily]

@Pacha I feel this so much… (incoming rant to commiserate not detract)

I try to play ‘off the radar’ i.e, ‘As little contact with staff as possible’ with the idea staff is only there for paperwork and banning. This includes being extra careful around staff alts and their packs/coterie/club/org/cults. If they make a ruling: I accept it as if I were sitting at their GM table. Arguing doesn’t serve anything but to get me on a shit list… and that’s no fun. (I don’t want to leave and lose the quality rp I’ve found in the shit show. I’m willing to put up with a lot for good writing. )

Largely on WOD games it keeps me able to rp and I’m a lot less stressed …

It’s not the best strategy (so maladaptive) on Mu* but its definitely an effective way to exist in a online gaming setting.

Unfortunately that has screwed me on non-WOD servers…

Upside for nonWOD mush: I only rely on me for rp and it has allowed me to rp with as little help from staff as possible. I can rp without touching the plot or npcs. This is nice if not effective for getting involved in plot.

Downside: I literally avoid staff and trip all over myself to make sure I’m not bothering them if i do have to interact… this includes with staff bits and npcs or even just ooc saying ‘Hi’. This makes involvment difficult and anxiety inducing. And I get the feeling that I’ve missed interacting with some pretty awesome people.

[Coin]

@Pacha said in MU Peeves Thread:

I have realised that from years of playing in WoD MUSHES, I am so conditioned to staff wanting to breathe down people’s necks about every little thing that I get incredibly anxious when I see other people RPing about something my character did—even something super innocent. It brings me out in hives that someone is about to send me a shitty job to tell me I am WRONG and BAD.

I think it is nice that games are a lot more chill these days, but I think it probably speaks volumes about the general state of WoD games that my most comfortable state is to be completely under the staff’s radar because staff on a WoD game paying close attention to what you’re doing is almost universally bad.

@Sillylily said in MU Peeves Thread:

@Pacha I feel this so much… (incoming rant to commiserate not detract)

I try to play ‘off the radar’ i.e, ‘As little contact with staff as possible’ with the idea staff is only there for paperwork and banning. This includes being extra careful around staff alts and their packs/coterie/club/org/cults. If they make a ruling: I accept it as if I were sitting at their GM table. Arguing doesn’t serve anything but to get me on a shit list… and that’s no fun. (I don’t want to leave and lose the quality rp I’ve found in the shit show. I’m willing to put up with a lot for good writing. )

Largely on WOD games it keeps me able to rp and I’m a lot less stressed …

It’s not the best strategy (so maladaptive) on Mu* but its definitely an effective way to exist in a online gaming setting.

Unfortunately that has screwed me on non-WOD servers…

Upside for nonWOD mush: I only rely on me for rp and it has allowed me to rp with as little help from staff as possible. I can rp without touching the plot or npcs. This is nice if not effective for getting involved in plot.

Downside: I literally avoid staff and trip all over myself to make sure I’m not bothering them if i do have to interact… this includes with staff bits and npcs or even just ooc saying ‘Hi’. This makes involvment difficult and anxiety inducing. And I get the feeling that I’ve missed interacting with some pretty awesome people.

The fucking trauma, y’all.

I talk about this with my fellow staffers/game runners alla time. I feel like I have to do triple fucking work to unweave the trauma so that I can actually RP with and tell stories with the players who come to my game.

Like, I understand where y’all are coming from but as a staffer who tries to be as chill and open and friendly as possible… lol, it’s disheartening, especially because the few people who do engage then seem to be “favored”, but no, it’s just they aren’t actively avoiding me.

[Sillylily]

@Coin said in MU Peeves Thread:

@Pacha said in MU Peeves Thread:

I have realised that from years of playing in WoD MUSHES, I am so conditioned to staff wanting to breathe down people’s necks about every little thing that I get incredibly anxious when I see other people RPing about something my character did—even something super innocent. It brings me out in hives that someone is about to send me a shitty job to tell me I am WRONG and BAD.

I think it is nice that games are a lot more chill these days, but I think it probably speaks volumes about the general state of WoD games that my most comfortable state is to be completely under the staff’s radar because staff on a WoD game paying close attention to what you’re doing is almost universally bad.

@Sillylily said in MU Peeves Thread:

@Pacha I feel this so much… (incoming rant to commiserate not detract)

I try to play ‘off the radar’ i.e, ‘As little contact with staff as possible’ with the idea staff is only there for paperwork and banning. This includes being extra careful around staff alts and their packs/coterie/club/org/cults. If they make a ruling: I accept it as if I were sitting at their GM table. Arguing doesn’t serve anything but to get me on a shit list… and that’s no fun. (I don’t want to leave and lose the quality rp I’ve found in the shit show. I’m willing to put up with a lot for good writing. )

Largely on WOD games it keeps me able to rp and I’m a lot less stressed …

It’s not the best strategy (so maladaptive) on Mu* but its definitely an effective way to exist in a online gaming setting.

Unfortunately that has screwed me on non-WOD servers…

Upside for nonWOD mush: I only rely on me for rp and it has allowed me to rp with as little help from staff as possible. I can rp without touching the plot or npcs. This is nice if not effective for getting involved in plot.

Downside: I literally avoid staff and trip all over myself to make sure I’m not bothering them if i do have to interact… this includes with staff bits and npcs or even just ooc saying ‘Hi’. This makes involvment difficult and anxiety inducing. And I get the feeling that I’ve missed interacting with some pretty awesome people.

The fucking trauma, y’all.

Precisely. I know there are awesome people staffing and running games. I know I’m missing out but…

The tingling dread weasles are conditioned to flail at the first sight of a wizbit …

Insert a ferret freak out gif here I can’t add because I’m on a phone.

[Coin]

@Sillylily said in MU Peeves Thread:

@Coin said in MU Peeves Thread:

@Pacha said in MU Peeves Thread:

I have realised that from years of playing in WoD MUSHES, I am so conditioned to staff wanting to breathe down people’s necks about every little thing that I get incredibly anxious when I see other people RPing about something my character did—even something super innocent. It brings me out in hives that someone is about to send me a shitty job to tell me I am WRONG and BAD.

I think it is nice that games are a lot more chill these days, but I think it probably speaks volumes about the general state of WoD games that my most comfortable state is to be completely under the staff’s radar because staff on a WoD game paying close attention to what you’re doing is almost universally bad.

@Sillylily said in MU Peeves Thread:

@Pacha I feel this so much… (incoming rant to commiserate not detract)

I try to play ‘off the radar’ i.e, ‘As little contact with staff as possible’ with the idea staff is only there for paperwork and banning. This includes being extra careful around staff alts and their packs/coterie/club/org/cults. If they make a ruling: I accept it as if I were sitting at their GM table. Arguing doesn’t serve anything but to get me on a shit list… and that’s no fun. (I don’t want to leave and lose the quality rp I’ve found in the shit show. I’m willing to put up with a lot for good writing. )

Largely on WOD games it keeps me able to rp and I’m a lot less stressed …

It’s not the best strategy (so maladaptive) on Mu* but its definitely an effective way to exist in a online gaming setting.

Unfortunately that has screwed me on non-WOD servers…

Upside for nonWOD mush: I only rely on me for rp and it has allowed me to rp with as little help from staff as possible. I can rp without touching the plot or npcs. This is nice if not effective for getting involved in plot.

Downside: I literally avoid staff and trip all over myself to make sure I’m not bothering them if i do have to interact… this includes with staff bits and npcs or even just ooc saying ‘Hi’. This makes involvment difficult and anxiety inducing. And I get the feeling that I’ve missed interacting with some pretty awesome people.

The fucking trauma, y’all.

Precisely. I know there are awesome people staffing and running games. I know I’m missing out but…

The tingling dread weasles are conditioned to flail at the first sight of a wizbit …

Insert a ferret freak out gif here I can’t add because I’m on a phone.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Autumn]

@Pacha said in MU Peeves Thread:

I think it is nice that games are a lot more chill these days, but I think it probably speaks volumes about the general state of WoD games that my most comfortable state is to be completely under the staff’s radar because staff on a WoD game paying close attention to what you’re doing is almost universally bad.

This is more or less how I feel, also; I can’t think of more than one or two times in mumble years when being noticed by staff on a WoD game has led to something positive. Usually it’s at best going back to status quo ante.

So … suggestions for how could staff members behave that wouldn’t lead people to dread getting noticed by them? Other than “interact with players for reasons that aren’t taking things they enjoy away from them”?

[Coin]

@Autumn said in MU Peeves Thread:

@Pacha said in MU Peeves Thread:

I think it is nice that games are a lot more chill these days, but I think it probably speaks volumes about the general state of WoD games that my most comfortable state is to be completely under the staff’s radar because staff on a WoD game paying close attention to what you’re doing is almost universally bad.

This is more or less how I feel, also; I can’t think of more than one or two times in mumble years when being noticed by staff on a WoD game has led to something positive. Usually it’s at best going back to status quo ante.

So … suggestions for how could staff members behave that wouldn’t lead people to dread getting noticed by them? Other than “interact with players for reasons that aren’t taking things they enjoy away from them”?

• take notice when people do cool things, and tell them
• be a part of the culture of your game, not just its admin
• no, but
• know the characters and offer, unprompted, avenues for development
• react positively and without irritation to pages/jobs asking questions

That’s like, the bare minimum.

[sao]

If you cannot trust the staffers on the game you’re on, consider leaving.

If you can trust the staffers on the game you’re on and you know that and are dealing with reactions in yourself that are not based on what is happening now, keep working on yourself.

Just try to be mindful of that and don’t blame the person trying to work with you now for shit some scumsucker did on X game 11 years ago.

Edit to add: I don’t think this is a problem now-staffers can actually fix. Coin is right that you shouldn’t be a dick but like… seriously, there is no one who can resolve someone’s anxieties about this except themselves.

[Roz]

The ways in which a current staffer can behave now to help alleviate the anxieties some players have from experiences with past staffers are pretty much the same rules for being a good staffer generally. My experience is that you can only do so much to address this, but beyond that, it’s really up to the player to work past. As a staffer, all you can really do is be up-front, transparent, and respectful with your players, and that’s already stuff you should be doing even if you don’t have any players feeling this way.

[mietze]

sometimes it just takes time. it’s really only been in the last year that i can deal with really going after stuff in requests (follow up on ic news posts, ect) or asking about stuff, even though i’ve been friends with the staffers for years some of them.

the thing is i’ve always seen this as my problem to solve (also why I don’t tend to assume too much about people doing a lot of stuff visibly, i always assume they don’t have my hangups for asking to be involved.

i am well liked on the games i play, by staff and others. they’re happy to engage and hear from me. this has been the case for longer than this year, but i think it just takes time for some people to really find a place where they can settle and let go of some of the anxiety/guardedness. i’ve staffed so i should know better about not worrying about bothering people, but i just think some of us are like that. i’m really enjoying the times i’m able to overcome it though.

[Gashlycrumb]

@hellfrog said in MU Peeves Thread:

@Gashlycrumb That’s fair. But what I mean by ‘the problem is players’ is the problem is quantity of players. I love an ideal where a storyteller has consistent and balanced motivation and creativity to GM for a rotation of all the players in a game with 75 active players. Taking turns IS obviously the correct solution to my stated problem of ‘players’.

Yeah, I know you mean “the problem is (too many) players.”

But this is a technically correct yet misleading statement. Blame shifting.

You’ve got a plane ticket. For this flight and this day, but when you try to board, you’re put on standby and end up waiting around the airport. The person at the counter says, “Too many people wanted to fly with S&M Airlines today.” You probably don’t say, “I feel for you, dealing with such a problem.” You say, “No. S&M double-booked the flight, wasted hours upon hours of my time, and now you’re talking like you’re helpless and it’s the fault of travellers.”

MU runners could close applications when they have too many PCs – Stop giving out tickets. They could organize shit so PCs take turns – arrange another flight.

Instead we get this “the problem is players” line, in a hobby where a great many players struggle with feeling unwanted and unwelcome, and fear being attacked by hostile staffers.

@Coin Yeah – most of the stuff people bitch about as one of the miseries of staffing have never been problems or even all that unpleasant for me. Players being afraid to talk to me because of this history of hostile staff, that has made things hard, contributed to me making bad mistakes. But maaaan. I do not blame them, I feel the exact same thing.

@sao said in MU Peeves Thread:

If you cannot trust the staffers on the game you’re on, consider leaving.

It’s always more complicated than that. You can probably trust them in some ways and not others. There might be other things about the game, such as fellow players, that make it worth staying even with untrustworthy staff. Many games are determined to obfuscate background activity, so you can’t actually know if staffers did something sketchy or if they did something that was totally legit but looks sketchy from your particular point of view.

And “If you don’t trust staff, leave” is used as a hammer to silence people who ask for evidence of trustworthiness. There’s also a strong tendency for “trust me or gtfo” staffers to also be Police Vultures who show zero trust to players, and that can be hard to swallow.

[Coin]

@Gashlycrumb

I am, once again, asking for people to stop comparing MUs to any sort of paid work or actual businesses. It’s a bad comparison, the stakes and realities thereof are not the same, and it puts undue pressure and expectations on the staff of games who are trying to provide a medium through which people can experience free entertainment.

I also think that it’s easy to say

And “If you don’t trust staff, leave” is used as a hammer to silence people who ask for evidence of trustworthiness. There’s also a strong tendency for “trust me or gtfo” staffers to also be Police Vultures who show zero trust to players, and that can be hard to swallow

– but the same is true in reverse. As a staffer, I’ve given leeway to people I shouldn’t have because it wasn’t cool to ask for evidence of their trustworthiness. Everyone loves to say “trust is earned”, but that’s minimizing the beauty of actually trusting people. Trust is like Faith: if you have proof, is it really?

[RightMeow]

I feel like (and this is my opinion not a fact) if you don’t trust someone leave. I mean that in games, in life, in relationships, in jobs, in all things. The older I get (and man is it older) the less time I have to give. I want to fill that time with people I trust. People that don’t make me second guess all the time (I have brain weasels there will be a few off moments).

It does NOT mean that the person isn’t trustworthy if I don’t trust them. It does not mean they are a bad person. It does not mean I am a bad person. Sometimes people and situations (especially in text) don’t mesh. That means, I stand by the ‘if you don’t trust them, leave’ statement. I don’t see it as a blanket to cover an issue. I think it a boundary to protect your time and your mental investment.

This is again, only my opinion.