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Posts made by Roz
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RE: MU Peeves Thread
MAGE!!!
ETA: omg the forum CUTS OFF any additional exclamation marks after three!! i am being oppressed!!!
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RE: MU Peeves Thread
@Jennkryst said in MU Peeves Thread:
Also I would argue that listing over a body pillow would fall under greed as it is a material object.
I don’t think you understand the relationship with the body pillow.
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RE: MU Peeves Thread
@bear_necessities i mean, that’s kind of a silly response in a mu peeves thread. you could say that about any mu peeve. just make your own game!
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RE: Tuomo, Leo, Theo (Clarion's playlist)
my memory of sidney was that he was delightful!
@Clarion said in Tuomo, Leo, Theo (Clarion's playlist):
- infinite Black Journal entries detailing who he thought was charming or boring or handsome, with occasional throwaway mentions of witnessing blood magic or major political events
okay but was aleksei deemed handsome
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RE: MU Peeves Thread
I can understand someone getting annoyed at their IP accidentally being caught up in a blacklist, but I agree that it’s weird to go off on someone and ragequit over it. Unless the person has some sort of other issues going on.
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RE: Pax Republica May 20245
Maybe I could convince you to put your updates in one thread instead of making a new one every time? It’ll still pop up as new forum activity for people.
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RE: MU Peeves Thread
@NotSanni said in MU Peeves Thread:
@Third-Eye said in MU Peeves Thread:
@NotSanni said in MU Peeves Thread:
dude is producing internet content for incels on 4chan, so, not a big surprise there
I have seriously been wondering if this was a 4chan guy but he seemed different than the standard 4chan guy? IDK, maybe they contain multitudes.
nah i found the “zine” they’re publishing, including the zine’s social media presence on the fediverse (and one of the two main contributors to the zine’s accounts/handles).
there’s a reason they weren’t loud and proud with the fact that they publish IDDQD Magazine and instead did a soft sell (probably trying to find likeminded people here to DM them to grift for money).
ah yes, our old friend NEETzsche, we meet again
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RE: MU Peeves Thread
@Narrator said in MU Peeves Thread:
What in the world are you talking about? The MUSH style of game has never replaced MUDs, and they’ve basically coexisted alongside each other for decades. MUDs are still plentiful now, probably moreso than MUSH style games. They serve different audiences and fulfill different niches. This is not a matter of “one is right and one is wrong.”
(And the idea that MUDs never have weird OOC issues with cliques is…a strange take.)
The kind of people into the sort of thing I’m talking about graduated from MUDs into things like EVE Online, which often don’t rely on roleplaying at all.
Wow sounds like they had some different interests in their hobby life! Wild that different people are interested in different things.
??? I literally don’t care if some code-heavy MUDs want to make use of LLMs to generate automated responses in their code. I don’t want generative AI writing on the games that are specifically focused on collaborative writing.
You could also use them as automated builders in the MUSH sense. You could have a blank room that’s earmarked for generation, and then when a player first enters it, the room, and all of the adjacent rooms, and all of the mobs and items and so on in those rooms, get fed into an LLM, and it generates a new room for you, with new mobs and new items and exits, and between 0 and 10 new rooms that are also earmarked for generation, iteratively.
Yeah, having mobs and items and generated rooms are – not actually the point of some games. Because, again, different games have different focuses and audiences.
My guy, to the crowd who thinks that it’s actually a better use of time and resources trying to detect LLMs so you can squelch them than it is to fiddle with them and make them serve your purposes better, it absolutely does need paragraphs of explanation.
It’s literally been like 0.5% of the time spent on the game I help staff on. This is not actually a big investment.
Please post the games you staff on so I can avoid them at all costs.
Has your deep technical expertise left you overlooking the publicly-posted playlist linked in the signature of literally all my forum posts?
Or were you too scared to look in the face of terrifying pronouns preceding it? I know, I know – basic parts of speech are pretty scary to think about.
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RE: MU Peeves Thread
What in the world.
@Narrator said in MU Peeves Thread:
@Roz said in MU Peeves Thread:
Yeah, and I think the point of this specific conversation is that a lot of people want it to be culturally inappropriate in this hobby. There are already games that make it explicitly not allowed to use generative AI in writing, and so sometimes they have to use tools to help confirm suspicions.
Those tools are basically useless. They have a success rate of about 60%, which is to say 40% of the time they give either a false positive or a false negative. They’re only marginally better than using a magic 8-ball. You’re wasting GPU cycles by relying on them.
Lol nobody’s pulling these out for every piece of text that comes in. They’re pulling them out when something is already obvious enough that it twigs people’s senses of “this feels off.” And then the results are inevitably like 99% because if it pings someone’s gut, it’s because it’s a pretty terrible example.
They’re not wasting nearly as many resources as the generative AI itself.
Also, the “MU*” segment of RPG players, what’s left of it, is notoriously backward in culture. Your culture needs fixing. I watched MUDs, which had legitimately sophisticated game design, get gradually replaced by MUSHes, which are basically just glorified Telnet chat rooms. It was done because they wanted to get rid of the Game part of Roleplaying Game, especially when it came to the Game part of Game Design. Through the 1990s, the conceit was that there was an automated GM that managed the world and did all the rules accounting involved in that. You could treat the rules almost like a strategy game, especially when it came to combat. More advanced MUDs had committees designed to better balance this element of the game and to add new features, to make the game richer. There was a potential to gradually build up a system so sophisticated that it basically was an automated GM, in all respects. But that was discarded in favor of World of Darkness MUSHes where most of the game is in the character application process and in making sure you never offend the right clique in the OOC foyer, and not in the scenes your character is in.
What in the world are you talking about? The MUSH style of game has never replaced MUDs, and they’ve basically coexisted alongside each other for decades. MUDs are still plentiful now, probably moreso than MUSH style games. They serve different audiences and fulfill different niches. This is not a matter of “one is right and one is wrong.”
(And the idea that MUDs never have weird OOC issues with cliques is…a strange take.)
LLMs have a similar potential to function as an automated GM, although there are some issues with the prose they generate, most notably a lack of something called “perplexity.” The current thinking is that the programmer feeds it all of the facts of the gamestate, all of the game rules, and what the players intend to attempt to do in that scenario, and the LLM uses its advanced reading comprehension to determine which rules to invoke, which gets returned to the programmer. They then evaluate the outcome of those invoked rules and feed the outcome tot he LLM, asking it to write some prose to describe what happens. That workflow has already been implemented in some limited contexts, it just needs work and refinement.
And you’re doing what people did with MUDs again, here. Instead of seeing something with all of this potential and going, “How could we improve this? How could we identify its flaws and mitigate or remove them?” you think, “How can we make sure this never gets utilized at all?” It’s not conservative thought, it’s literally regressive thought.
??? I literally don’t care if some code-heavy MUDs want to make use of LLMs to generate automated responses in their code. I don’t want generative AI writing on the games that are specifically focused on collaborative writing.
Is “the drugery of production” here…writing? Writing words in our writing hobby?
RPGs entail a lot more than just “writing.” Remember the “game” part of “roleplaying game”? That thing MUSHers gradually excised from MUDs because it might entail a little bit of logic, a little bit of math? That’s pretty key here. “Writing” is one aspect of many in RPGs. There’s also game balance, mechanical flavor, simulation accuracy, ensuring choices players make are consequential, game depth (players have more than one avenue that could lean to a “win”) over game complexity (having a bunch of rules to memorize), and the list goes on and on. Calling RPGs a “writing hobby” really tells me quite a bit about what you think the whole point of this is.
Yeah, could it possibly mean that different parts of the MU* hobby spheres have different focuses? That different types of players have different interests?
I wasn’t saying anything about RPGs in general. I’m sorry if I didn’t specify that I was talking about a subset of games within the MU* sphere that this board tends to discuss most often.
It also probably explains the contempt I recall for a certain class of players I met in the 1990s and 2000s, who didn’t have the best English skills, but boy oh boy, did they display a lot of creativity and cunning in the warfare/combat modes of MUDs back then, and why they were gradually pushed out in the 2000s and were basically gone by 2010. It also explains why what’s left of the MU* sphere has a dearth of good programmers. As I demonstrated above, this isn’t just a “writing hobbby.” It’s also a design hobby and an engineering hobby. It’s a hobby for people who know how things work, and want to make things.
I’m pretty sure people are still making things!
You got rid of the grognards and the math geeks and now all you have are people who think RPGs are about purple prose and pronouns.
Oh Jesus Christ.
ChatGPT doesn’t need you veering off in a conversation just to shill for it.
By “ChatGPT” do you mean “LLMs”? They aren’t all interchangeable. But like I said. It’s not going away no matter how mad you get about it.
Buddy, it was just one person making a joke, it doesn’t need paragraphs of explanation.
My guy, to the crowd who thinks that it’s actually a better use of time and resources trying to detect LLMs so you can squelch them than it is to fiddle with them and make them serve your purposes better, it absolutely does need paragraphs of explanation.
It’s literally been like 0.5% of the time spent on the game I help staff on. This is not actually a big investment.
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RE: MU Peeves Thread
@Narrator said in MU Peeves Thread:
@Third-Eye said in MU Peeves Thread:
I do make use of AI detection tools, both free versions and a paid one I subscribed to after Too Many Of These Incidents For Me, but mostly they’re confirmation for me when something feels REALLY off. There’s tons of AI generated stuff that’s actually been edited or was just a touch-up on something a human wrote that I don’t and would never notice. I associate LLM with being over-long and flat yet also weirdly effusive, mainly, but it’s usually not ‘bad’ writing, as such. It’s weird because it’s not ‘written’ at all, it’s word-generated-after-word. ‘Simple’ language that’s also repetitive due to that generation is probably the rhythm of it that twigs me the most. This article mentions it and some other tells.
https://readwrite.com/how-to-tell-if-something-is-written-by-chatgpt/
IDK, I think there’s also a ‘scales falling from your eyes’ quality when you know this stuff is becoming widespread (presuming it bothers you, I guess). Once you actually start to look for it, you start to see it when it’s obvious, and a lot of the time people don’t bother not to make it obvious.
AI detection tools are only really useful when you’re operating in a culture where use of generative AI is considered inappropriate in the first place.
Yeah, and I think the point of this specific conversation is that a lot of people want it to be culturally inappropriate in this hobby. There are already games that make it explicitly not allowed to use generative AI in writing, and so sometimes they have to use tools to help confirm suspicions.
The above issue in particular paid my mortgage that month. Since then, our editing has gotten way better. We’re – and it is a we since I’m not the only person here – of the view that AI-generated content is the future, but that it will also never replace human editorial vision. It’s here to stay, and so are us humans.
So AI can replace writers, just not editors???
@Narrator said in MU Peeves Thread:
@Trashcan said in MU Peeves Thread:
@Narrator
Of course using AI tools is expedient. At this point, everyone involved in the conversation recognizes two things: AI tools are expedient to use and they stand to make the people creating and using them a lot of money. No one is arguing these points.I’m glad you’re being transparent about your business practices, but the complaint in this thread is about people who are not being transparent. To use your Whole Foods analogy, you may not care where your eggs come from and that’s fine. Keep buying your 5 dozen egg trays. However, if someone thinks they’re buying the pasture-raised free range eggs and when they open the carton, they are, in fact, the same eggs from the factory farm, that just ain’t right.
Yeah. Well, that’s an issue of false advertising, which is a form of fraud. So there’s definitely basis for outrage there, or at a minimum irritation depending on how much it really matters.
It was pretty much the whole point of this particular conversation thread on this particular board: this is MU Peeves, it’s about people using LLM on a MU, not LLM in general.
If you want a real critique of generative AI, it’s that the out-of-the-box solutions right now aren’t very good. If your goal is to make something cool and interesting, they’ll produce something formulaic to the point of being droll. Quite a bit of effort goes into wrangling and contorting them to produce that interesting thing, which requires editorial vision.
You can still automate away the drudgery of production, though, if you do go through that trouble. That’s for certain.
Is “the drugery of production” here…writing? Writing words in our writing hobby?
And it’s also definitely not going away no matter how angry people get about it.
ChatGPT doesn’t need you veering off in a conversation just to shill for it.
@Tez said in MU Peeves Thread:
@Pavel Honestly I’m just impressed. You have to really work at it to get ChatGPT to come up with anything smutty, after aggressively reassuring it that all parties are consenting to the joyous experience.
This is because the entire GPT line of LLMs is designed to be inoffensive. OpenAI’s content moderation philosophy is basically that the produced text must be safe according to an HR or PR executive. This means no graphic violence. It means no sex. It means no -isms or -phobias. And so on. Its output comes off as sanitized, because it IS sanitized. This is great if you’re a corporation who wants to automate job rejection letters that feel somewhat personalized without running afoul of anti-discrimination law, but it’s awful if you’re a novelist trying to make it take the broad strokes of your plot and fill in the blanks, because everything interesting in the human experience is all-but-guaranteed to piss hall monitor bureaucrats off.
There are LLMs that can be run locally with a commercial-grade GPU, like those downloadable GGUF models. However, in order to use them effectively for a purpose other than an HR-safe one, you need to fine-tune it on the kind of content you want. If you want smut, you’ll need to fine-tune it on bodice rippers. If you want violence, you’ll have to fine-tune it on military science fiction or horror. If you want -isms or -phobias, you’ll have to train it on /pol/ or your uncle’s bowling alley GC. If you want some mix of all of the above, you’ll need to train it on all of the above.
There is a similar issue with commercial image generation models like Midjourney and DALL-E, where they refuse to make explicit violence or pornography, and to an extent don’t like making women with certain body types because they’re too titillating. If you’re hoping to make an avatar of a woman with a Christina Hendricks build, that’s an uphill battle. It’s so frustrating that in our circle we’ve come to calling Midjourney “Midjanny,” since it’s acting as the fun police.
Buddy, it was just one person making a joke, it doesn’t need paragraphs of explanation.
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RE: Good Systems to use in 2024?
@Mr-Johnson I’ve never handled the server side of stuff before, but from the documentation, it looks like the basic Digital Ocean droplet recommended for Ares is $12 a month. Others probably have better info there!
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RE: Good Systems to use in 2024?
I’d imagine that Ares + one of the various Traits or RPG plugins from here would be your best bet? Like if you just want to list out a few superpower traits for a given character, then I think ESH Traits is fairly designed for that.
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RE: MU Peeves Thread
@STD said in MU Peeves Thread:
… Dare I ask, who is this Jill the Guest?
Jill has been around the MU* community for over a decade now. I’m not sure when the earliest Jill sightings were, but I remember becoming aware of her in the early 2010s?
She connects to games as a guest and pages people with female-sounding names. The conversation tends to start off innocuous: saying hi, maybe asking about the game, etc. Small talk. Eventually it tends to get steered to hobbies, and usually athletics in some fashion, and then it’s about high school athletics, and then it’s about the weird physicals her girls sports team all had to undergo to play sports.
She’ll dip fast if you push back or act weirded out at any point in the conversation, especially if you actively identify her as Jill or guess where the thread of conversation is going. It’s weird conversation, and it’s definitely not an appropriate line to bring up with strangers, but I think because of how quick she is to bolt, most people tend to find her more vaguely baffling but not threatening.
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RE: Comic Games Are Still Fun!
@renaveleigh said in Comic Games Are Still Fun!:
But divorced from all of that, my gut feeling is that Rogue is some kind of weirdo chud or consciously covering for the feelings of one, so while I’m happy to not get wildly political in public, I am also never not going to find it funny that her knee-jerk reaction was to clutch her pearls over the very controversial statement that Alex Jones Is Bad, Actually.
From an outside perspective entirely divorced from any behavioral patterns here, this specific conversation pasted doesn’t look like someone clutching their pearls, it looks like someone asking for a subject change and getting guff about it. Like, in this specific instance, she looks like the reasonable one, not the people snarking about it.
All that said, my jumping into this conversation was literally only about finding it strange that people would not consider this a political topic, but I’ve never met a minor disagreement I couldn’t talk about at length. (This is probably not my best trait.) But I also don’t have the other logs anymore.
To be clear, I do remember the drama around this person from back in the MSB days of the preceding game this one came from? And I absolutely believe they’re not someone I’d want to play with or be on a game they’d staff on. Just to make that part clear!
I’ll also note that there are players who have cart blanche to whine about how sensitive people are nowadays, and how there are too many genders, and pronouns are hard - all of which feel like more inherently political dog whistles and/or statements than acknowledging that a lying scam artist is a lying scam artist - so while I do appreciate the value of not talking about certain subjects because they can cause friction, it’d be nice if that standard was applied more evenly.
That is absolutely really shitty. That sort of thing definitely wouldn’t fly in numerous other places with similar “let’s avoid political conversation” policies. I’m confident that the mods here would shut it down, for instance, and I’d have no interest in entertaining it on the one game I’m staffing on (nor would any of the other staffers).
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RE: Comic Games Are Still Fun!
@GF said in Comic Games Are Still Fun!:
@Roz “Politics” seems to imply viewpoints that people can disagree about in good faith. Alex Jones is simply an ongoing denial of objective, observable reality who has never spoken in good faith in his life. That it’s “controversial” to say so blows my mind.
Yeah, it’s not generally controversial to say that, but that wasn’t really my point or implication. I said he’s political, not because he has a worthwhile viewpoint that he argues in good faith, but because he’s engaged with the overall machine of politics, because his (bullshit) commentary is centered on political things.
I probably wouldn’t want to deal with a conversation snowballing from that topic, either.