@labsunlimited said in Historical Games Round 75:

See this is what makes pre modern games attractive in terms of ism handling. The world was so different that many of the categories of bigotry today just didn’t exist yet. The beef between ancient Assyrians and Greeks might as well be a beef between vampires and werewolves for how relevant it is today.

It’s unavoidable in all human history that people have used bigotry to justify harming perceived political and social enemies. It’s not the only way to go after your enemies, either, and those other ways are a lot less retraumatizing for people who have experienced it. Few people have been traumatized by weaponized lightning bolts, disintegration rays, or medieval weaponry applied to them. Nor have they been hurt by people orchestrating a palace coup against them and running them off their throne. But the modern ism stuff? Why drive off players like that? If the beef is between like, Hittites and Myceneans, who cares? Go ham.

Another agree and disagree. I personally prefer to explore pre-modern stories, but there’s still plenty of isms in those cultures which resonate on down the line: sexism, classism, etc. History is not freedom from isms, just distance. Hopefully.

@DrQuinn said in Historical Games Round 75:

I think when doing something like this you also need to be very aware that “historical prejudices” are still very real today and that mushes are still overwhelmingly white. So while it might be fun for one person to play being racially discriminated against in the old south, there are a whole lot of people who deal with that every day and might be going online to escape from that and not want to see that in their fun-pretendy-time game. Especially since there are definitely players out there drooling to put that white hood on and let the things they don’t dare say in real life to a person out online.

Like a social contract is great, but also is going to probably ensure that your player base is mostly white.

I agree and disagree with you:

Especially since there are definitely players out there drooling to put that white hood on and let the things they don’t dare say in real life to a person out online.

Throw them out. Throw them the fuck out. I don’t think they are as subtle as they think they are. If you see it, if you sniff it, throw the poop out. You’re right that you will get people pushing boundaries, but you get people pushing boundaries regardless. Flush 'em.

Like a social contract is great, but also is going to probably ensure that your player base is mostly white.

Maybe.

I think we also have a tendency (duh, obviously) to take a very modern (duh, obviously) western idea on what isms are and what we would expect to see in play. I’m more interested in themes of cultural xenophobia than colonial racism: the isms of different times and in different places. I’m interested in stories that don’t draw quite so direct a line to the here and now, but there are of course still echoes of any marginalized stories.

@Trashcan said in Historical Games Round 75:

Since I was namedropped earlier in the thread (thanks @Tez) I felt compelled to post something here.

@Trashcan @Trashcan @Trashcan @Trashcan @Trashcan @Trashcan @Trashcan

Thanks for being willing* to be dragged in to the conversation.

For me it comes down to two things:

a) Players need to know what to expect. The social contract that @Roadspike cited is a great place to set expectations.
b) Staff needs to do the work to maintain their vision.

* not willing

@Roadspike said in Historical Games Round 75:

I think this is a great take, but I also think that some of this can be covered with the use of a Social Contract as described by James Mendez Hodes in one of his several very good blog posts on historical (tabletop) roleplaying:

https://jamesmendezhodes.com/blog/2018/11/10/best-practices-for-historical-gaming

If Staff lays out from the start what is acceptable to see on-screen and what is not, what will be argued about on-screen and what will be accepted, then anyone who violates that Social Contract can pre-emptively be shown the door, allowing those who remain to explore the setting to the extent that they feel comfortable within the protections of that Contract.

Literally right this second in another chat talking about social contracts as a good tool for this. 1000% agree.

Moved here from https://brandmu.day/topic/606/missed-settings/41

Moved some posts before Ashkuri kills me

I’m gonna say something wild:

I think maybe more isms should be included again and we’ve gone too far to remove them. It is possible to tell stories – good stories, fun stories – inside of that structure as long as people have full awareness of what they are engaging it and the chance to opt in or out. Let players play bad guys if they want, so that other players have something to play against.

But.

The list of people I trust with this is pretty small, and staff would have to VIGOROUSLY ENFORCE THIS. I’ve talked about this with @Trashcan a bit lately. I can’t blame people for choosing to eliminate the isms rather than police them. It’s staff time that could go elsewhere, and by including them, staff have a responsibility to make sure that they are used well and players are behaving.

But!!!

I don’t think including isms is necessarily bad.

Bujold’s Vorkosigan books, but mostly that’s a surprise to me because @Tat and I looked at doing it but never really got it rolling.

I’m tagging you everywhere today, Tat. Sorry.

@Snackness said in Your first game?:

An RL friend got me into Harper’s Tale (Pern MOO) when we were in high school. I have long since lost touch with that friend, but I’m still MUing!

It was my sister who got me into it when we were in jr. high or high school. I didn’t tend to play very many games at a time, so HT was my mainstay for a long time although I dabbled in others.

Years later when @Tat and I met on our X-Men game and staffed together we discovered that we had actually played together on HT which was fun.

I think the difficulty of all of these basic pieces likely holds it back from wider adoption. There’s a reason there’s 10 new ares games for every new evennia game. ANYWAY GOOD LUCK WITH THIS.

@dvoraen Evennia is missing a lot of shockingly basic stuff. TOO BAD YOU CAN’T.

Unexpected (to me) but chunk is winning in his bracket. If 602 goes down to Chunk, it’s a noble loss. What an underdog story.

I think it’s forked right. IF anything looks forkfucked, let me know.

@KarmaBum YOU BET

@somasatori Understandable confusion.

ET avoid double postin: GRAZER’S UP LET’S GO GIRL I BELIEVE IN YOU just not as much as i believe in 602 i’m sorry he’s huge.

@Third-Eye said in FAT BEAR WEEK 2025:

Man, Chunk had a broken jaw this season and still looks beautifully massive.

These bears

Inspirational, honest. I won’t be mad if chunk wins.

I usually love to vote for the jr bears when they come up in the big bracket but the fact that 602 is known as a ‘floatato’ is DEEPLY endearing to me. Usually I’d be team grazer, but her pic this year just isn’t showcasing the same level of HEFT. I might be team 602 this year.

https://explore.org/fat-bear-week

let’s goooooooooooooooo

h/t @Third-Eye

@Third-Eye said in Minigames in MUSHes:

For me, the big question with all this stuff is, why aren’t you just playing a single-player video game or MMO to get your engagement fix? They do a lot of ‘mini-game’ things better. So, what’s the appeal, for a person into this sort of thing, of not just having that open on your secondary monitor? What does it add to an experience that’s unique to a MUSH?

100% the heart of the question. I’ve been talking about this with a few other people – you know who you are – and like. I fucking love Harvest Moon games. Hours poured into HM, SoS, Stardew, all of the many variations-- Let’s just say it’s a lot. And survival games! Oh my God, Conan, I love you. ARK, you fucking beloved mess. I thought for a hot sec about how that genre might work as a MUSH, but I don’t know how you would replicate ‘die to a fucking monster, wake up, punch a tree to get a branch to make an axe’ in a satisfying way.

It’s a bad idea as a MUSH. I don’t think you can get the same dopamine, the same feedback loop, out of breaking rocks and punching trees. Video games give you sight, sound, real designed elements that work together to create a satisfying feedback loops that makes the grind provide the dopamine.

Fundamentally the thing that MUSH does well is typing words with other people. You have to find minigames that succeed with that at the core.

@dvoraen said in Minigames in MUSHes:

@Tez So what I am hearing is I should make puppy-eyes at Tehom to do this for Arx II. Over Aion knows how many months.

cries in database schema

No one should ever make puppy-eyes at any coder for anything. If I want these things, I* will make them myself.

Spoiler