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Log Posting Standards
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I am honestly very, very upset, putting myself in NAMEDELETED’s position. I genuinely do not understand how given the entire context of the situation, ‘hands off’ is the correct approach. Y’all have context. Y’all know this isn’t positive. You “suspect” but…won’t act without that suspicion confirmed. “pick and choose” what is and isn’t against the rules is the role of a moderator.
Somebody is being victimized, and we are perpetuating and providing their abuser a platform to continue.
the entity previously known as Sunny
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she/they
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Yes.
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I’m going to fork this discussion so that people can engage in it without needing to take part in this thread. I think it is worth talking about to see what standard the community wants to set around logging.
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@Tez said in Enjoy the Reads!! (Admin: ETA a content warning. It's THE LOG from The Pack thread.):
Do you believe it was okay when Cobalt posted the log?
It’s my understanding that Cobalt posted that log with permission of the other person on the condition of minimum available info and anonymity.
Anonymity has already been broken by the person posting and mods had to edit to remove the name, and there is a lot of identifying information about the other player involved, from the little I could stomach reading.
This was obviously done with malicious intent.
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Moved from Rough and Rowdy by
Tez
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I have forked this thread and moved it to Comments & Feedback. Please keep that in mind when discussing.
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@Meg said in Log Posting Standards:
I think there’s a fine balance here and I don’t like the direction that we would take if we removed this log. If I am accused of being a bad actor to someone in a scene, and I come here and post the log of the scene in the entirety, that person accusing me (or their friends) can say I am harassing them by posting the log and get it taken down?
Idk, that worries me. People who have logs should be able to post logs.
IoleRae and GF (I avoided tagging you because you might not WANT to be involved, but you are the ones I would particularly like to hear from) how do you feel about Meg’s example?
AGAIN, SINCERE VOICE. I’m sorry the internet isn’t great at tone, but I really do want to hear.
she/they
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Done with malicious intent or not, the logs do not make the harasser look any better, nor make the person being harassed look at all culpable.
I agree heartily with content warnings and removing names of the innocent player, but posting logs of bad actors - and having bad actors or others post logs that they think might provide more context is kind of a cornerstone of this subsection of community discussion.
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Thank you for forking the thread. Whatever other decision is reached I think it’s a nasty log that we don’t need to increase traffic to.
My main reaction to the other thread was genuine confusion; I don’t understand what anyone got out of posting it. Even as cruelty it seems to fail (to me). I’m sorry that my empathy is failing me here, I can’t quite see what you’re seeing.
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I genuinely think that the mod team here can tell the difference, and that telling that difference is both a- the whole reason for mods, and b- the hardest part of your job.
“I may not always be able to define it, but I know what it looks like.”
the entity previously known as Sunny
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@Meg said in Log Posting Standards:
I come here and post the log of the scene in the entirety, that person accusing me (or their friends) can say I am harassing them by posting the log and get it taken down?
^
It comes across as “and don’t message me back!!!” if you can’t even defend yourself in public when you got called out in public.
If your defense turns out to be more damning than exculpatory… well, that just sorta makes the point for us: you don’t know how to read the room.
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So I understand where the dissent is coming from and I agree that if there was anything other than the log it should’ve been taken down. Like, if the title of the post called out the other person in the log, or if there was anything else added below the log (inflammatory conversation,etc). But the log itself? Eh.
Right now, we are running on very little information. We do not even know who sent the log to Cobalt to begin with? So idk, I hope that if the other player felt victimized that they are not continuing to feel victimized but I also am trying to put myself in this player’s shoes and I’d just be laughing at the idiocy of someone reposting the log here in a vague attempt to prove something.
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@Tez said in Log Posting Standards:
@Meg said in Log Posting Standards:
I think there’s a fine balance here and I don’t like the direction that we would take if we removed this log. If I am accused of being a bad actor to someone in a scene, and I come here and post the log of the scene in the entirety, that person accusing me (or their friends) can say I am harassing them by posting the log and get it taken down?
Idk, that worries me. People who have logs should be able to post logs.
IoleRae and GF (I avoided tagging you because you might not WANT to be involved, but you are the ones I would particularly like to hear from) how do you feel about Meg’s example?
AGAIN, SINCERE VOICE. I’m sorry the internet isn’t great at tone, but I really do want to hear.
I am also speaking as sincerely and as literally as possible, with no shade intended to anyone but with my deep sense of upset possibly causing my tone to convey offense when I do not intend it.
I do not consider Meg’s example to be analogous to this situation. NaderElShammy posted these logs fourteen hours ago, after joining this site fourteen hours ago. NaderElShammy said nothing in defense of themself, Macha, and/or the redacted individual, but did name the redacted individual when the original log did not. That is the most obvious, material effect these logs had, in addition to more than whiffing of an attempt to provoke the age-old argument that people who have been sexually harassed deserved it.
I do not know Meg very well personally, but nothing I have ever seen from her leads me to believe that if she were accused of being a bad actor, she would respond by creating a new account that outs her victim and posting something that not only doesn’t explicitly claim to be a defense of herself (we’re all just assuming the logs are meant as a defense of Macha, because the posted logs contain no such statement of intent) but also makes her look worse in the process. I would be extremely surprised if this is how she would respond to such accusations instead of providing context and making her own intent clear as well as having the courage to allow us to identify her as Meg when she did it.
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@GF I appreciate your sentiment. And I do understand more where you are coming from, in that the lack of context and actual defense makes it worse than the log just being posted out of context, feeling more like harassment? I am clarifying my reading, because I do agree with that.
If the person had said ‘I am a friend of Macha’s and this was absolutely not how it is presented. The person wanted the scene and seemed to elicit wanting the scene to go this way. Here is the full log:’, you wouldn’t be calling for the log to be removed?
The one thing is that I would be wary of equating the time of an account (brand new vs my account, for example) with a ‘rightness’ of account, though I don’t think you are doing that. Just posting a little note on that.
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@GF said in Log Posting Standards:
I do not know Meg very well personally, but nothing I have ever seen from her leads me to believe that if she were accused of being a bad actor, she would respond by creating a new account that outs her victim and posting something that not only doesn’t explicitly claim to be a defense of herself (we’re all just assuming the logs are meant as a defense of Macha, because the posted logs contain no such statement of intent) but also makes her look worse in the process. I would be extremely surprised if this is how she would respond to such accusations instead of providing context and making her own intent clear as well as having the courage to allow us to identify her as Meg when she did it.
I get your point, and thank you for responding, but I also want people to be able to come and defend themselves.
If someone who is a longstanding member of this community does something shitty, that doesn’t make them immune. Someone who has been here for a day has as much right to post a log of theirs as someone who has been here from the start.
I don’t want to privilege people who are already here. This is why I tend to support letting the text speak for itself.
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My feeling is that this is a very sticky place to be, as a balance between not shutting down legitimate ways to use the forum, vs. not letting people spam things like logs in a way that doesn’t contribute to the forum.
My leaning is that I would like to see logs be required to have some stated purpose to them from the poster. “I am posting this log to show X.” X might not be truthful in the end - we’ve all seen cases where someone posts a log thinking it absolves them and instead it’s pretty quickly realized that it proves them to be an absolute asshat.
But just spamming a log into a thread with no context or explanation seems like it doesn’t really contribute anything to the discourse of the forum, and instead sets things up for just this kind of confusion and distress from posters.
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@IoleRae I definitely hear your point about that being part of the responsibility of moderators. This is very much still an open subject and I appreciate your point.
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@Pyrephox said in Log Posting Standards:
My leaning is that I would like to see logs be required to have some stated purpose to them from the poster. “I am posting this log to show X.” X might not be truthful in the end - we’ve all seen cases where someone posts a log thinking it absolves them and instead it’s pretty quickly realized that it proves them to be an absolute asshat.
But just spamming a log into a thread with no context or explanation seems like it doesn’t really contribute anything to the discourse of the forum, and instead sets things up for just this kind of confusion and distress from posters.
This is where I am leaning too.
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@Tez said in Log Posting Standards:
@Pyrephox said in Log Posting Standards:
My leaning is that I would like to see logs be required to have some stated purpose to them from the poster. “I am posting this log to show X.” X might not be truthful in the end - we’ve all seen cases where someone posts a log thinking it absolves them and instead it’s pretty quickly realized that it proves them to be an absolute asshat.
But just spamming a log into a thread with no context or explanation seems like it doesn’t really contribute anything to the discourse of the forum, and instead sets things up for just this kind of confusion and distress from posters.
This is where I am leaning too.
Well now we’re UNANIMOUS.
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This is what abusers do. They humiliate you by showing everyone that you were OK with what was happening up until a point.
This log wasn’t posted to convince us of anything. It wasn’t posted to make Macha look better. It was posted to humiliate someone she felt humiliated by, because she was rejected and reported.
If y’all wanna leave it up, that’s above my paygrade. I’m here to sit in the peanut gallery, I do not want your job and I’m grateful that you do it. Howeeeeeeeever:
There’s nothing wrong with walking back a previous decision and saying “sorry guys, we were wrong, turns out that this was in fact a genuine effort to provide clarity and context”. No one’s gonna burn you at the stake for that. That’s the kind of transparency and accountability I think everyone wants, but not at the cost of letting the paraphernalia of abuse hang out in the lobby.
I get how tempting it is to try to create standards that will encompass every situation. That speaks to the tech product egghead in me. But part of moderation is going with your gut, there’s always a human element.
Tough situation, I trust you guys to make the right call. All this sucks. Just sucks. I feel so bad for whoever NAMEREMOVED is. I just feel like protecting them is more important than protecting an anonymous rando who won’t answer any questions.
I wish you would.
