Empire Discussion Thread
-
I would (gently, politely) just point out that I did immediately qualify the text you have quoted with:
“Of course, Ada is welcome to decide that is more effort than they are willing to put forth.”
-
@Pacha You did, and my statement was meant more generally. So I’m sorry that wasn’t entirely clear. However, the quoted phrase, and others like it in sentiment, are phrases I’d much rather we as a society (though I’d settle for just the hobby) abandon when applied to other people.
ETA: Though that’s a whole different discussion around implicit ableism in our language that’s probably worth at least a master’s thesis’ amount of research.
-
My stance is that the onus is on the individual in a position of authority to be clear in what they mean. Staff has control over the situation, so they need to ensure that the player understands them. This wasn’t a chat between two equal parties; one clearly has power over the other, and, therefore, has the responsibility to be clear in their communications.
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
-
@Warma-Sheen said in Empire Discussion Thread:
I cancelled a bunch of others cause having a bunch of actions open that we’re being addressed was really making me feel a kind of way.
This is the key bit of that log for me. It seems like this person was already being kind of passive aggressive and establishing a bad behavior pattern over waiting five days for a response from the lone staff member running the game. And it sounds like the other characters hadn’t even weighed in on the action yet for the staff member to even respond.
I don’t think log/no log was the real issue here.
-
@Ominous While I disagree with the whole philosophical underpinning of what you’re saying here, we can unpack that at a later time. I do want to suggest one thought: They both thought they were being clear and the other was being confusing (at best) or intentionally obtuse (at worst).
There’s really no use in using the word clearly so often (not in this most recent post, but previously) when talking about a miscommunication/confusion/talkyfuckery.
-
@Ominous said in Empire Discussion Thread:
one clearly has power over the other
No they don’t. Let’s not be super ridiculous here. That’d be like saying Pyre has power over us because they are mods of the forum
And while we’re on the topic of being super ridiculous, we’re going off a log that was clearly copy-pasted instead of screen shotted so we have no idea what happened. Literally everything could be editted.
-
@bear_necessities said in Empire Discussion Thread:
That’d be like saying Pyre has power over us because they are mods of the forum
@Pyrephox has power over me because they still have the photos from the first (and only) Admin/Mod staff party. They shall likely never look at a turnip quite the same way.
-
@bear_necessities said in Empire Discussion Thread:
@Ominous said in Empire Discussion Thread:
one clearly has power over the other
No they don’t. Let’s not be super ridiculous here. That’d be like saying Pyre has power over us because they are mods of the forum
And while we’re on the topic of being super ridiculous, we’re going off a log that was clearly copy-pasted instead of screen shotted so we have no idea what happened. Literally everything could be editted.
There’s a degree of power that, realistically, I have. It is small and stupid and very easily revoked, but it exists. But, conversely, everyone on this forum has the power say “fuck off, Pyre” and demand I be removed from modstaff or they leave to make a new forum. Which is how we got here!
So, yes, a staff member has the power to make a game experience suck, but in this case, I think with a game with a single gamerunner, that GM recognizes that someone is going to be a Problem early on and just removing them is a pretty good decision. If Ada removes a lot of people, or removes people who aren’t, uh, pretty well already established as being Problems across several games, then the game will die and the problem will self-correct.
For the record, I had a case where I didn’t receive a response for an action for a while, and I added a polite (I hope) ooc message to the action asking what my next step was, and Ada simply pointed out that I had an outstanding roll to do and I hadn’t noticed. Problem solved, nobody got banned, and I didn’t feel “some kind of way” about it.
-
@Pyrephox said in Empire Discussion Thread:
If Ada removes a lot of people, or removes people who aren’t, uh, pretty well already established as being Problems across several games, then the game will die and the problem will self-correct.
I don’t even think it’s that. It’s consistency. Staff needs to be consistent with how they respond to problems. The player in this case was being rude and pushy in Ada’s opinion, so they got a one and done ban. This needs to be consistent going forward. If other people are rude and pushy to Ada on the same level, they should also get a boot.
I can’t count the number of games I’ve seen with inconsistent staffing.
-
@Pavel said in Empire Discussion Thread:
@Ominous While I disagree with the whole philosophical underpinning of what you’re saying here, we can unpack that at a later time.
You disagree that people in positions of authority should be clear in their communications to those they have power over?
I do want to suggest one thought: They both thought they were being clear and the other was being confusing (at best) or intentionally obtuse (at worst).
That’s fine. It’s on the person with authority to make sure that the discourse is clarified. “I feel like you are being intentionally obtuse about this and are conversing in bad faith. What is it you are having issues with, so that I can clarify and we can move forward? Be verbose if you need to.”
@bear_necessities said in Empire Discussion Thread:
No they don’t. Let’s not be super ridiculous here. That’d be like saying Pyre has power over us because they are mods of the forum.
Pyre does have power over us. They can ban us without recourse, and we can’t ban them. It is not a two-way street. This isn’t a ridiculous statement. If Pyre were to ban me right now, it would have a negative effect on me. It would be embarrassing, it would hurt my ego, and it would deny me the ability to communicate with a community I enjoy having discussions with. Just because a forum for discussing a very niche topic is trivial in the grand scheme of things doesn’t mean that losing access won’t have a psychological effect. Obviously I have a desire to be here, since I am here posting. You all also have a desire to be here; otherwise, you wouldn’t be posting in reply. Hell, this forum wouldn’t even exist if people had just shrugged their shoulders and never gave MU* forums another thought after getting banned from MSB.
And while we’re on the topic of being super ridiculous, we’re going off a log that was clearly copy-pasted instead of screen shotted so we have no idea what happened. Literally everything could be editted.
Yes, it could have been edited. Warm Sheen could be talking out of their ass. But it’s all I have to go on right now. Based on what is presented, my feelings are that Ada should have communicated better.
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
-
@Ominous said in Empire Discussion Thread:
You disagree that people in positions of authority should be clear in their communications to those they have power over?
No, I disagree that staff and players aren’t equal parties and that staff is the only one with responsibility for clarity in this or any other situation. Any power staff has is miniscule, as I am an adult with other things to do than worry about what an internet person thinks about me. Staff are just players with a job, worthy of no more and no less respect than anyone else.
But this seems to be a fundamental disagreement between us, so we’ll just agree to be ambivalent about it 'tween us.
-
@DrQuinn said in Empire Discussion Thread:
@Warma-Sheen said in Empire Discussion Thread:
I cancelled a bunch of others cause having a bunch of actions open that we’re being addressed was really making me feel a kind of way.
This is the key bit of that log for me. It seems like this person was already being kind of passive aggressive and establishing a bad behavior pattern over waiting five days for a response from the lone staff member running the game. And it sounds like the other characters hadn’t even weighed in on the action yet for the staff member to even respond.
I don’t think log/no log was the real issue here.
This may be the key to my not understanding why people think Warma Sheen was being pushy. I do not read that as being passive aggressive at all. I read that as “I am uncomfortable having a bunch of requests in the queue that are all related and are potentially creating needless work, wasting your time, and delaying other players’ requests being acted on, so I deleted them.” But I am an incredibly anxious person who thinks he is a waste of space and needlessly wastes people’s time, so that’s automatically where my mind goes when reading that because I can see myself writing something like that and that’s what I would have meant by it.
@Pavel said in Empire Discussion Thread:
No, I disagree that staff and players aren’t equal parties and that staff is the only one with responsibility for clarity in this or any other situation. Any power staff has is miniscule, as I am an adult with other things to do than worry about what an internet person thinks about me. Staff are just players with a job, worthy of no more and no less respect than anyone else.
You may not be personally bothered if someone ends your access to an internet server, but it’s still a power over you that you do not have over them, a monopoly on the power of coercion. You will adhere to whatever they demand, or you will not be there anymore. That is power and that is authority, even if it is on a silly thing as a MU server.
But this seems to be a fundamental disagreement between us, so we’ll just agree to be ambivalent about it 'tween us.
Apparently. I almost said “clearly” but that’s come up a lot.
-
@Ominous said in Empire Discussion Thread:
But I am an incredibly anxious person who thinks he is a waste of space and needlessly wastes people’s time
This conversation has not been a waste of time and even though we disagree I am grateful to have had it. We’re all glad you have occupied space here.
So put that in your pipe and smoke it, anxiety.
-
@Ominous said in Empire Discussion Thread:
If Pyre were to ban me right now, it would have a negative effect on me.
Respectfully, this is you perceiving Pyre’s power and giving them a great deal of power over you, vs them actually having power over you.
If Pyre banned you right now for doing absolutely nothing except responding to a post, there would undoubtedly be backlash and it probably wouldn’t hold (although half of us would say you deserved it, then another half would say Pyre’s power-tripping, and there’d be a ton of back and forth about the perception of your tone and what you SHOULD have said vs what you DID say along with a disseration-level deep dive on what you implied with your perceived tone like we are literary scholars … sound familiar?)
-
@bear_necessities said in Empire Discussion Thread:
Respectfully, this is you perceiving Pyre’s power and giving them a great deal of power over you, vs them actually having power over you.
Hey @somasatori are you qualified to supervise PhD candidacies yet? I’ve got a few ideas from this thread…
-
@bear_necessities said in Empire Discussion Thread:
If Pyre banned you right now for doing absolutely nothing except responding to a post, there would undoubtedly be backlash and it probably wouldn’t hold (although half of us would say you deserved it, then another half would say Pyre’s power-tripping, and there’d be a ton of back and forth about the perception of your tone and what you SHOULD have said vs what you DID say along with a disseration-level deep dive on what you implied with your perceived tone like we are literary scholars … sound familiar?)
It’s about time for a spin off. Let’s go.
-
@bear_necessities said in Empire Discussion Thread:
@Ominous said in Empire Discussion Thread:
If Pyre were to ban me right now, it would have a negative effect on me.
Respectfully, this is you perceiving Pyre’s power and giving them a great deal of power over you, vs them actually having power over you.
Perception doesn’t figure in. I’ll believe perception is reality when a crazy person jumps off a building while flapping their arms, and they actually fly. How much you let someone’s power affect you psychologically is under your control, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have power over you. If someone can keep you from doing something then they have power over you whether you care a great deal or not at all. It’s like people saying “You can’t fire me; I quit.” Regardless, your employment is over, security is showing you to the door, and you’re never getting hired by them again whether you care or not.
If Pyre banned you right now for doing absolutely nothing except responding to a post, there would undoubtedly be backlash and it probably wouldn’t hold (although half of us would say you deserved it, then another half would say Pyre’s power-tripping, and there’d be a ton of back and forth about the perception of your tone and what you SHOULD have said vs what you DID say along with a disseration-level deep dive on what you implied with your perceived tone like we are literary scholars … sound familiar?)
Maybe. Until the decision is rescinded, if it gets rescinded, their power is keeping me from the server.
-
@Ominous I think there’s two different meanings of the word ‘power’ at play here.
There is, of course, the authority to do something. Pyre can ban you or me or anyone from this forum (or well, collective staff can, whoever actually controls the keys to the kingdom). My boss can fire me tomorrow. Definitely all power.
But if Pyre bans me right now, she really has no power over me other than that. No influence over my life. If my boss fires me right now for not doing the work I should be doing and instead replying here, I won’t be able to buy a number of things I want to buy, and probably pay bills, and I will probably be very unhappy.
Even beyond that, my boss has a lot of influence over my life in general. He has power over me.
This is more like a peer-to-peer interaction. Your friend could stop hanging out with you tomorrow, and effectively, there was some amount of ‘power’ there in that they chose a thing and banned you from their presence, but that wasn’t them exerting power over you versus choosing who they want in their life.
-
Staff on games, and mods on forums, have power over the space they’re running. They have power to make the space as they want, and let who they want in and kick out who they don’t. They do control whether a person can interact with their specific space.
But this is different from having power over people.
