Haven
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Guys what the HELL happened on this haven game and is this why you’re all vaguely fucked up regarding RP? I’m told there was a huge documented thread about this elsewhere but now it’s lost to the ether forever.
It was just a PvP mud (which the owner would tend to call a “collaborative storytelling MUD, with horror themes”), with lots of methods by which to make gameplay less fun for other people and little to no actual community management or moderation, and so it attracted a good deal of people who tended to want to win REALLY badly, and would go from 0 to 60 with regards to escalating conflict. Or people who really wanted to do Sexy/Romance RP and wouldn’t take it well if you weren’t super receptive to that.
That plus lots of just weird systems that probably should have been red flags to me at the time, but we live and we learn (some of us, at any rate).
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Guys what the HELL happened on this haven game and is this why you’re all vaguely fucked up regarding RP? I’m told there was a huge documented thread about this elsewhere but now it’s lost to the ether forever.
IIRC the documented thread was on MU Soapbox.
In Occam I trust.
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I was told by @sab that you could choose to do a coded PULL OUT method after TS. This is amazing, I’m so sad the thread is gone.
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I started playing Haven when I was 21 and I think I low-key didn’t realise how much of a baby I was at that age. Because of that I feel like there’s no way I can describe this game without sounding like I’m talking about an abusive ex, but the truth is it did have a pretty major impact on me, and I don’t feel like pretending it didn’t for the sake of Cool Detached Stoicism internet points. I realise the expectation is just to unequivocally dunk on it, and if I do anything else I will look crazy, but here is my very honest take:
Haven, its core gameplay loop, and its playerbase, were basically three games in one. It would average around 10-40 players online at any given time depending on seasonal peaks/lulls and timezones, so yeah, big game. Its old forum currently lists 322 registered members, and given it’s gone through multiple member purges, I would estimate the total number of people who’ve ever played it is actually much higher.
The three games it was can IMO be loosely categorised as:
Tyr/Ouroboros/Nova’s game: head dev, coded 90% of it, currently the only active staffer.
Daed/Editor’s game: head storyrunner, had a reputation as a stellar roleplayer many years prior on the RPI scene, pretty much everyone agrees he was the coolest of the bunch and a lot of people have said he’s why they were playing.
Discordance/Amatsuka/Anodyne’s game: made all the fertility/rape/pregnancy/fetish/kiddy/school/misogyny stuff, was in charge of community management until Tyr replaced that job with bad AI.
People who were there for one aspect of this game were not necessarily there for other aspects of the game, just because of how big it was. You can argue they were still complicit, because why would you play a game where so much shittiness happens just because you like other aspects of it? And inevitably you would run into other aspects even if you weren’t primarily there for that, which is usually when people would either quit or rage or both. Although the fact that Tyr has had a longstanding policy of never banning anyone, no matter how harmful they were to the community, until/unless they either literally threatened to track him down and kill him in real life, or tried to bounce back a donation through their bank, meant that mostly all of these incompatible personalities would stick around making each other miserable for eternity.
So anyway, with that primer out of the way, the stuff BMD is probably most interested in gossip about is Discordance’s game. That’s Blackfield, the school sphere where paedophilia RP happened. It’s also weird fetish code, like Blackfield staffers had supernatural semen. Pregnancy was a coded system (made by her) tied to sex code and fertility code. If a heterosexual pair fuck, and the female half of that equation is codedly fertile, and protection either isn’t used, fails, or is faked (there was condom stealthing code), then she can get codedly pregnant. Paternity is tracked. If she later had sex with a Blackfield Staffer while pregnant, the super semen would replace the original paternity of the baby. At one point the game had IUD code, which was a way to essentially opt out of fertility altogether on a female character (at an in-game cash cost, which you pay at the hospital). Later IUD code was removed because, according to Discordance, it didn’t add anything to the story. And this is the tip of the iceberg of all the insane fetish stuff that game had.
Some people may have heard of real-world convicted felony rapist Azazello/Cullen. He’s an OOC friend of Discordance’s because go figure, they’re both really into rape RP. She’d protect him to the point of giving his high-powered character a free reskin in chargen, so that other people who were avoiding him wouldn’t know who he was. She’d moderate anyone who talked shit about him in a blatantly biased manner. This is also the tip of the iceberg of staff abuses I could describe here.
Largely in the latest version of Haven, almost all of this stuff was removed, and Discordance is no longer an active member of staff (although I suspect she still has staff perms to snoop on players or whatever). I have my theories as to why all of this stuff was removed/changed, I don’t personally think it’s because Tyr had an ethical problem with it. I think he just came to realise it was bad for his game’s reputation.
After Tyr released the Haven codebase, it was picked up by literal Nazi Ppurg/Asanadas/Pooch and a psychopath called leah, who is not to be confused with a much chiller Leah/Niamh who ran various successful games in the RPI sphere. Ppurg & Haven-leah made a new game called Duskholm, which is basically just the parts of Haven that were Discordance’s game, all the stuff that was removed in this latest iteration. Just the sex dungeon school etc.
It feels a little unfair to call Daed’s game just that, because a lot of the tools were actually coded by Tyr/Nova, but for the sake of this staff split explainer I’m gonna stick with it. Here I’m talking about the story side of the game. Haven had some pretty excellent storyrunning tools that I genuinely haven’t seen on other games, which emphasised empowering players to worldbuild, customise the existing world to the fullest extent, and create opt-in, controlled corners where they could tell their stories with other players they jam with, with relatively little staff oversight unless they either did something stupendously rule-breaking, or directly asked for it, and even then whether or not staff could be bothered was always a question.
Daed ran the metaplot, but there was plenty of story to be had with other players, even if you weren’t involved in the metaplot. You didn’t have to touch the school or any of the game’s crustier parts. Players could, to a limited and opt-in extent, play Gods of their own personal interpretation, Archdemons in Hell, Fae spirits, and organise adventures for players of their choosing. For instance, I played Mammon, Archdemon of Greed, who lived in Hell, but could communicate with players on Earth from afar if they opted into Mammon stuff. I storyran a bank heist, etc.
If Tyr & Disco were mum & dad, Daed was basically the cool uncle, in that nearly everyone liked him, and he had the most direct communication with the playerbase. He routinely expressed disgust for the paedo stuff in particular, and at one point PKed a paedo player’s character, which as story staff he was definitely not allowed to do — but no one was mad about it. Eventually he split off to make SuperMUD, his own game, without any of the Discordance code. It’s currently in development, and he now goes by Editor.
Tyr’s game is where I will tepidly defend Paroxym as a concept, if not in execution. I think a lot of his code is cool. I’ve played a lot of MUDs and MUSHes and haven’t found one that scratches the right itch for me in terms of the coded aspects of the game. I like his emote system, RP-focused combat system, in-game social media system, freeform item creation/customisation, storyrunning code, secret society conflict, cars, and how customisable and open to interpretation character builds are.
I don’t think a game that utilises the Haven codebase is automatically suspect just because it uses the Haven codebase. I would ask a lot of questions, which others already have, like “are you keeping all the rape stuff” etc. Paroxysm is, SuperMUD isn’t. I genuinely think a lot about his code is excellent, and a lot of it is stupid, and I largely wouldn’t judge anyone for wanting to play around with it.
I would personally never in a million years use Tyr’s code, for one very simple reason, which is that if I ever do make a game, I don’t want to feel like I owe any part of it to someone I would otherwise freely talk shit about, which I will now proceed to do:
With Daed gone and having taken some of his best player collaborators with him to SuperMUD, and Discordance’s community management role largely MIA, Tyr (now going by Nova) replaced all these jobs in his new iteration with AI. So you don’t have all the rape/paedo stuff anymore, but now you have AI storyrunning, AI lore, AI community management, AI grid-building, AI website, etc. I think this guy can code, but I also lowkey don’t think he has an actual pulse or any real understanding of what causes people to emotionally connect with stories and with each other. I don’t think he’s capable of community management or even mentally understands what function that serves. I think shitty players turn up on his game all the time and then he sits there and thinks, “wow, it’s such a shame my wonderful game is ruined by terrible players for no reason, that’s definitely not my or the game’s fault though, it’s the players” when obviously staff’s job is to curate their playerbase, and not hand that job over to a misogynistic, paedophilic rape fetishist.
All that said, through this inaction, the game has fostered a very mixed fanbase which includes a literal Nazi Disord called Darkchat, sexpests who’ve abused players OOC and even IRL, and one crazy overattached girlfriend called Kestrel. Fuck all of the above.
A bigger concern for me with any Haven offshoot wouldn’t just be what code is being kept, and what relationship it has to former/active staff, but also what community it’s fostering and importing over with it. So that’s why I asked Paroxysm’s dev who he played before, and it’s the first question a lot of ex-players will have, because Haven has had its share of psychos plenty of people would not trust as staff.
Diatribe done, all my best to SuperMUD. I personally don’t currently intend to play, because I can’t stomach most of the Haven community, even those who aren’t literal real-life rapists or literal Nazis. But I do have friends committed to it whom I think highly of, and if after its launch they tell me it’s actually a cool space, I will probably jump in too.
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Hey. Editor here, formerly Daed.
It means a lot to hear that some of what I was trying to build there genuinely mattered to people.
That said, I want to be careful about how much credit I accept for the good parts, because I also have to accept responsibility for the bad parts.
Haven was supposed to be an urban horror game. That was the original idea, at least as I understood it. I have always had a pretty enormous love of action, superheroes, and increasingly ridiculous supernatural bullshit, and I was absolutely one of the people responsible for dragging Haven away from that original vision. As a young man, I also possessed a lack of self-control that wasn’t limited to any one member of staff, either. All of us contributed to the game becoming something very different from what it was originally supposed to be.
Eventually, Haven went from urban horror to comic-book levels of supernatural shenanigans, alongside what can only fairly be described as pornographic levels of smut, and while the former is my fault solely, the latter probably belongs to all three of us.
And there were much worse problems than that.
There were toxic people and sex pests. There were abusers. There were things happening on that game that should never have been happening, and the staff, myself included, did not do enough to stop them. I can point to individual decisions I made, or things I tried to do, but ultimately I was part of the staff of that game for years. I stayed. I knew things were happening. Sometimes I acted, and sometimes I didn’t.
That makes me complicit in the bad shit that happened there.
I don’t really have a more comfortable way of putting it.
I did try to push back against some of it. Sometimes that meant confronting people, sometimes it meant intervening in stories, and sometimes it meant taking matters into my own hands in ways that I probably shouldn’t have. I PKed people whose behavior I found completely unacceptable. There are things I saw that disturbed me deeply enough that I still remember them vividly.
One incident in particular involved an underage sexual scene that affected me badly enough that I literally threw up all over my laptop and had to replace it. I subsequently PKed the person responsible, which led to this Reddit interaction.
But none of that makes me a hero. If anything, it makes the contradiction harder to reconcile. I could be horrified enough by what I was seeing to react that strongly and still remain part of the staff of that game for years afterward.
I sometimes tell myself that I didn’t have banning power, and that’s true. But it isn’t really an excuse. I didn’t have banning power because I wasn’t trusted with it. I had spent years subverting the intended theme of the game, and I absolutely played favorites. There were people I liked, people I disliked, and people whose presence I simply didn’t want to deal with. I don’t think giving me unilateral authority over who was allowed to remain on Haven would necessarily have produced a fairer community.
I have to own that too.
Blackfield, and its predecessor the Academy, were probably part of the beginning of the end for me personally. I saw things there that I found profoundly disturbing, but I stayed for years anyway. I don’t have a particularly satisfying explanation for that. At the time, I think I convinced myself that staying meant I could do more good than leaving. Looking back, I’m not nearly as certain that was true.
I don’t want to dismiss the good times from Haven, because I cared hugely about the game and about the people who played it. I think there really was something special about the ability to let players build their own corners of the world, run their own stories, and create things that staff never could have come up with ourselves. I am genuinely proud of some of what we accomplished there.
But I also don’t want to hide behind the good parts.
Haven’s failures are a big part of my history.
And that brings me to SuperMUD. The community that has been watching SuperMUD develop is, in a lot of ways, a community in healing. There are people who want a fresh start. There are people who have complicated feelings about Haven. There are people who enjoyed Haven immensely and people who were hurt by it. I don’t think we can pretend that history doesn’t exist, and I don’t think we should.
Anyway, that’s the last thing I’m probably going to say about Haven in a public setting.
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I love MU history.
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Guys what the HELL happened on this haven game and is this why you’re all vaguely fucked up regarding RP? I’m told there was a huge documented thread about this elsewhere but now it’s lost to the ether forever.
IIRC the documented thread was on MU Soapbox.
If only people hadn’t lied about plans to totally keep it around as an archive after kicking everyone out.
Mummy Pun? MUMMY PUN!
She/her -
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Guys what the HELL happened on this haven game and is this why you’re all vaguely fucked up regarding RP? I’m told there was a huge documented thread about this elsewhere but now it’s lost to the ether forever.
IIRC the documented thread was on MU Soapbox.
If only people hadn’t lied about plans to totally keep it around as an archive after kicking everyone out.
In an effort to repopulate the lost details, I have three stories from Haven.
The first is when I created a character. I knew of all the horrible stuff that went on in Haven, so my quest was to study it to ensure nothing of that sort could happen in Silent Heaven. (This was part of a larger goal to play every active RP game in order to identify what works and what doesn’t work, and then combine everything together, haha.)
So I went into Haven with the intention of taking notes.
I was immediately shocked when, during chargen, someone named Horsey Biscuit attempted to have unprotected sex with my partially-created character. My chargen experience was interrupted by a prompt to choose Yes or No to accept the unprotected sex attempt.
I made a note to block all possible actions during chargen (and to never have such a bizarre prompt, which I already wasn’t planning). I moved on and entered the game.
I found an inn, and did some RP with a few people who were there as well. Eventually , one character propositioned mine via RP. My character told him to buzz off and to go make out with a can opener.
This made him very angry, so he initiated combat code with my character. I asked him OOC for a tutorial on combat and he responded by telling me OOC to “just let it happen.”
He knocked out my character and woke her up in a hotel room, with her arms and legs bound. He then instructed me to say the phrase that allows non-consensual sexual acts to happen to my character. I refused. His character then said that mine wasn’t worth r*ping and he left. Still bound in the hotel room, I logged out. I made a note to disallow aggressive actions on new characters for their first week, and to make any detainment effects last for only an hour while requiring another character to be present and RPing.
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The second time I logged into Haven, my character woke up in a completely different place, so I went exploring. I found a farm, a lighthouse, and a warehouse district bereft of characters. Then, unfortunately, I accidentally wandered onto the campus and found folks talking about a 12 year-old’s tentacle training, so I got out of there.
Then someone offered to run a PRP scene for me, where my character had to get on a phantom ice cream truck to avoid a bear attack. That was some fun RP. I brought my spooked PC to a restaurant to ask about the ice cream truck and they had no idea what she was talking about. Then I mentioned the bear and they said that there are no coded encounters with bears so I must by lying. That was the most disheartening way to crush the only positive experience I had, so I left to continue my wanderings.
Then there was a broadcast of “wet t-shirt contest starting in 10 minutes” at some club. I would have preferred any other event, but I’m here to study this game, so why not.
They denied my character entry into the club because she had an appearance score of 1.5 out of 10. But they left the door open and I was able to watch the RP from the outside.
The next hour or so was just a bunch of boobs going everywhere. I couldn’t discern any coherent story progression. So I logged out, having learned nothing from the event.
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The third story is not mine, but rather someone else posting about the time the admin logs were accidentally visible to all characters for about a day. I still have a portion of a log.
Sat Feb 6 13:12:30 2016 :: LOGONCOUNT: Jacob MinOff: 716, Esteem: 9057, RPXP 0+61000 XP 0+3200, Influence: 961, Karma: 5663, Cash: 0+380
Sat Feb 6 13:12:30 2016 :: LOGONINFLUENCE Jacob: Result: -70, Cost: -150, standpoints: 0, slut: 0, status 0, tier 30, prof 0, social 0, praise 0
Sat Feb 6 13:12:31 2016 :: LOGONCOUNT: Dani MinOff: 449, Esteem: 0, RPXP 0+510000 XP 0+102000, Influence: 12092, Karma: 24742, Cash: 0+119
Sat Feb 6 13:12:31 2016 :: LOGONINFLUENCE Dani: Result: -126, Cost: -150, standpoints: 0, slut: 0, status 0, tier 20, prof 0, social 0, praise -46
Sat Feb 6 13:12:40 2016 :: INFLUENCE BEHAVE: Dani gets given -1 for Habit logon…
Sat Feb 6 13:12:40 2016 :: INFLUENCE BEHAVE: Jacob gets given 2 for Habit logon…
Sat Feb 6 13:12:45 2016 :: ATTRACT: Kayly was given 10 for Showering.
Sat Feb 6 13:12:50 2016 :: ATTRACT: Kayly was given 10 for Showering.There were also point gains for female characters putting on makeup, point losses for females eating too fast, and point losses to male characters for “banging an uggo.”
The implementation of hidden lust and attractiveness values is gross, doubly so for the misogyny present within the system which punishes women for their actions and qualities.
If it weren’t misogynistic, and if it covered actions for all sorts of vices (not just lust), then I imagined that would be an intriguing system for gaining the attention of demonic influences.
That was actually the inspiration for a system in Silent Heaven that the SH players have called “attunement,” where every system ties into a certain vice. For example, if your character KO’s another character in combat, that contributes to your character’s Wrath attunement, gaining the attention of a wrathful demon. Going idle contributes to Sloth. Overeating contributes to Gluttony. Having a character desc that’s longer than a single page contributes to Pride.
I made sure there are 3 or 4 actions that contribute to each of the 15 vices, in order to avoid repetition.
Ultimately, there were some good takeaways from my Haven experience. It had some particularly neat concepts. The main drawback for Haven was that everything was executed in some of the worst ways imaginable, to empower abusers at every level of the hierarchy, both IC and OOC.
Game-runner of Silent Heaven, a small-town horror MU.
https://silentheaven.org -
Ok like. If you log into a game and there’s people trying to rape your character immediately upon chargen why did you continue playing there? How can you say there are “neat concepts” in a game full of rape and TENTACLE TRAINING 12 YEAR OLDS?? I don’t even understand what you could’ve possibly learned from this experience or why anyone would continue to play there, staff there, or have fucking fond memories of there when there was CHILD PORN. Even if you avoided it, you still played on a game that PROMOTED CHILD PORN.
is this fucking bizzaro land? What the fuck. Seriously.
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@bear_necessities Are you really going to try to bonk Jumpscare on the head for giving us this incredible information?
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There were also point gains for female characters putting on makeup, point losses for females eating too fast, and point losses to male characters for “banging an uggo.”
AAAAAAAAAA
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If you log into a game and there’s people trying to rape your character immediately upon chargen why did you continue playing there?
i mean, it was stated pretty clearly on the post?
I knew of all the horrible stuff that went on in Haven, so my quest was to study it to ensure nothing of that sort could happen in Silent Heaven.
So I went into Haven with the intention of taking notes.
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@bear_necessities It’s very easy to have fun on a game where things you’d find disgusting are happening, when they’re not happening to you. I played on Shang, a game filled with fetishes that gross me out, for years, and did so pretty happily, despite the presence of various dickwads (figurative and sometimes distressingly literal).
In fact, speaking of finding useful games in a game with things I don’t like, I often refer to Shang’s kinks system as a decent structure for RP Prefs if you want to get coded and granular with them.
Play where you want, let other people play where THEY want, and get what they want out of the experience.
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Yeah so, was not bonking Jumpecare over the head. Sorry if it came off that way.
I’m pretty distressed over the child rape RP part of this whole thing.
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Play where you want, let other people play where THEY want, and get what they want out of the experience.
I feel like we should all agree to draw the line on games that have child rape in them though. Like I definitely do not want anyone getting what they want out of that experience. Ever.
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