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MU Peeves Thread
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@mangosplitz Those events are in response to requests made by groups of players poking at plot, and there’s a staff-run plot guide explaining how to do that.
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@helvetica I get the complaint assuming @mangosplitz is talking about Concordia (bc really dude just name names already, vaguebooking is so 2023). Four events, all featuring the same 4 characters, is a bad look. But considering the last large plot was in October, I assume 90% of the people in those groups that did the requesting are idle or have quit?
IDK you’re never going to please everybody.
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@bear_necessities word. for my part on playerside, I tried to invite people I had connections to and got fatigued by them reading the mails and not responding, so ~~the group that’s there is the group that responded before I ran out of steam. c’est la vie.
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@helvetica 100% not on you as a player, other players suck and it is fucking exhausting as a person to try and be inclusive and get 0 answer from anyboy.
Just giving my “from the outside looking in” perspective on the situation. But also lol @mangosplitz just from my time on Concordia I 100% believe if you asked the head GM there to be involved, you would? So idk you get what you give in any situation.
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Passive participation results in passive inclusion. We can’t know you want to do something if you don’t tell us you want to do something. That’s not gatekeeping, it’s just a lack of telepathy
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@mangosplitz said in MU Peeves Thread:
waiting for weeks while all of staff takes a break at the same time
Idk but I get sucked into holiday/kid events from pretty much mid-october to January these days. So like… staff taking a break over a commonly bust time for many doesn’t seem bizarre???
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The visibility on this is really unfortunate sometimes on ares games, since you cannot have truly hidden events (and unless things are customized, you can see how many private scenes there are and who and timing too, which I personally feel contributes to a lot of feelings of FOMO/left outedness if someone ISN"T used to that kind of transparency until they recalibrate). Once people do realize that’s all it is, it gets easier to ignore unless there’s other difficulties.
But that’s going to happen on any ares game unless it’s heavily customized. One of the things that I LOVED about Wyrdhold is glitch making private scenes truly private (I think there was notification of how many but that is all). I don’t remember seeing any You Are Not Invited events but I don’t know if just planning happened privately (I participated in some that were handled like that!) or if there was some switch that made it happen, Glitch is like super awesome so I could see that being something they could do!
On places like arx and other places if an event is toggled private or limited it won’t even show up for people who are not eligible. I don’t think that Concordia has an unusual amount of private STed responses to requests, if anything there are a lot less. They’re just visible to all. It’s one of those things that you can’t take personally as a player, though at the same time I think staff probably shouldn’t take anything personal about about player worry when they see things they’re used to being hidden/out of sight.
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For concordia specifically, I find that once you are able to get yourself over the threshold to put in a request, it’s pretty easy and friendly. You do not need to involve other people at all (though I believe working with a group nets a bonus). I’m not gifted at paperwork and my brain organization is different than the norm, so at first it was disorienting to have things get closed or shifted quickly with a quick turn around time–BUT one thing to remember about ares at least on this game is that you can ping to reopen very VERY easily just on the web portal, it’s not “final” if it’s been closed because response time took too long and you totally don’t have to start from scratch.
None of that is personal, it’s just a style and applications thing. I know for me, when something is CALLED the same thing (request) I tend to think of it in the same terms of what I’m most used to (which in my case is not ares or a system where a paused request can be popped right back open at will. So that’s an adjustment too.
There are some super friendly folks on the game that will totally help you if you need help brainstorming on how to approach a request, ect. Or even if you post on the forum or ask on channel about feeling out of the loop! So I’d really encourage you to do that too. If the request thing is intimidating I totally get that, I’m much better at RPing than I am at organizing.
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@mietze said in MU Peeves Thread:
One of the things that I LOVED about Wyrdhold is glitch making private scenes truly private (I think there was notification of how many but that is all). I don’t remember seeing any You Are Not Invited events but I don’t know if just planning happened privately (I participated in some that were handled like that!) or if there was some switch that made it happen, Glitch is like super awesome so I could see that being something they could do!
I fucking loved that too. I looooooooove Ares but the FOMO of some of the pieces of it can hit pretty hard sometimes. First thing I do on any Ares install is turn off featured scenes. MY GOD.
FOMO can be rough in our community, but no one is a mindreader and staff can’t be expected to be either.
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I will say that I don’t think anyone should expect staff to be mindreaders but also the players shouldn’t expect to be mindreaders also - and it can be extremely hard to “know” that stuff is Happening after a long break, especially if you are not connected to certain groups. Specific to the interrogation, I recall an OOC conversation where people were asking to be involved months ago and the tone was not having a ton of people in the room or something similar to that, and while I think that came from a player rather than staff, it can be super intimidating to even the most proactive of players to hear stuff like that and still try to be involved. And IIRC didn’t a lot of the people suddenly thrust into leadership go pretty inactive immediately afterward? It’s sort of a “sucks all around” sort of situation.
Anyway I do think we have a tendency to believe staff should come to us when we’re being proactive to reward us for good behavior or whatever and ehhh I don’t think that’s a good way to go about getting involved in things.
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I seems to me that it doesn’t take a mind-reader to suppose that somebody on the game wants to participate in it.
Sure, not always true, there are some people who don’t want to play staff-run stories, any GM will find those people who you can’t coax or prod into stuff.
But mostly?
Similarly, well, consider this very conversation. It doesn’t take a mind-reader to suppose that maybe somebody is not sure if they’re welcome for certain storylines etc.
Hell, I spent a solid year on a game where it typically took three weeks for ‘my’ GM to respond to my +requests by asking a question that was already answered in said request, then another three weeks to respond to my repeating the answer, during which time they’d feed important plot-points that I was working on to NPCs, and similar such behaviors. Attempting to play rather than wait resulted in me being typified as demanding constant attention in spite of me not actually entering anything into the game but a daily ‘pub Good evening folks’ for weeks at a time.
One thing that sucks balls about GMing MUs is that one more or less must apply salves to burns other GMs have inflicted on players.
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@mietze said in MU Peeves Thread:
One of the things that I LOVED about Wyrdhold is glitch making private scenes truly private (I think there was notification of how many but that is all). I don’t remember seeing any You Are Not Invited events but I don’t know if just planning happened privately (I participated in some that were handled like that!) or if there was some switch that made it happen, Glitch is like super awesome so I could see that being something they could do!
Now, see, my MU Peeve is that this game is gone and now you’ve gone and mentioned it, you awful person.
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Hi there
To clarify, from my point of view (I play Lysander), I put in a job about interviewing those prisoners on 25 October.
From my point of view, I initially ran a scene where Lysander wrote to basically every PC on the game who had a specialism in law or law enforcement, inviting them to take part.
I took all of those people, and then everyone who approached me and asked to be involved, and put them on a great big job, which totalled about 8-9 people.
Unfortunately, there were various delays and such, which meant that it took until now to get the resulting scenes done. Because of the passage of time, a lot of the people who had been on those jobs initially fell off or lost interest, so by the time it came to do it, there were 3 of us.
The three characters could not do the same days, so we ended up doing two scenes on two different days. I did both, but that involved me staying up past 2 am two nights in a row, so I did put in significant effort to attend those scenes.
To the massive credit of Spes, she went around everyone that was online and available on both nights to find other people who might like to join in and participate, with the result that we had extra people at each event.
It certainly was not any attempt to exclude or slight anyone, and anyone that approached Lysander I included on the job. Even other people who wanted to go ahead in a way Lysander disagreed with (wanting to be violent with the prisoners), I did my best to find a way to let that happen for them, and they are going to get a chance to do that.
So, anyone who asked me was included, and I proactively asked everyone who seemed to have a relevant interest in those scenes (law or law enforcement) to get involved. Obviously, if you are playing a character whose main interests are, say…needlepoint or exploring the wilderness and you had not expressed any particular interest, there was no logical reason to invite you to such a scene.
I genuinely do not see what more I could reasonably have done to include people.
There was definitely a long delay with staff being unavailable and then the Christmas break. I will personally say that I am not a great fan of “closed” events being posted publically (I also play on Shattered, where they do that a lot, and I really dislike it). Still, I get it is a useful organisational tool.
I am not sure there is an overarching point I am trying to make. I just wanted to set some facts out from my perspective.
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@Pacha said in MU Peeves Thread:
I genuinely do not see what more I could reasonably have done to include people.
I wasn’t going to comment again because my point was made, but I want to clarify that my post wasn’t directed at you, my dude. We haven’t RPed, but you seem like a nice and inclusive player, and I apologize if you thought I meant to be critical of you as a player. I didn’t even think that all of the scenes were yours specifically, although that does kind of go to my point because I know you’re not the only player asking for help on things (as someone else said, having a bunch of IC leaders roster has been rough on folks).
There was definitely a long delay with staff being unavailable and then the Christmas break. I will personally say that I am not a great fan of “closed” events being posted publically (I also play on Shattered, where they do that a lot, and I really dislike it). Still, I get it is a useful organisational tool.
This was really my only thing. It was just frustrating after having the game go dormant other than a handful of players who struggled to keep events and activity up over a two or so month period while staff was burned out (only to see a bunch of THOSE players get burned out and quit after picking up that burden), to see staff make a triumphant return and only address a portion of stuff in the same corner. But looking at it from their perspective I suppose it’s easier to bring things back in clumps and all those scenes were interrelated, but this is where “telepathy” comes up with communication to players that their stuff is coming, too.
To bear necessities: I wasn’t trying to vaguebook to be edgey, I was just trying to post a general MU Peeve as the thread is called, not “name and shame” a particular game on blast just because that happened to be the the most recent place I saw this thing (which others have agreed is a peeve) happen. It wasn’t meant as an attack on the game (it’s a fun concept and has awesome players and a very dedicated head staffer), just something that kind of sucks when I see it happen (and this isn’t the first or second MU I’ve seen it happen on).
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@mangosplitz said in MU Peeves Thread:
To bear necessities: I wasn’t trying to vaguebook to be edgey, I was just trying to post a general MU Peeve as the thread is called, not “name and shame” a particular game on blast just because that happened to be the the most recent place I saw this thing (which others have agreed is a peeve) happen.
This is a tangential thing, I don’t play on the game being discussed but…idk what people expect when they post in the public Peeves thread about what’s clearly a specific incident that’s readily identifiable to the people involved, who have their own point of view on it. This comes up a lot and…idk what people expect. Not explicitly naming a game or person doesn’t really obfuscate much a lot of the time and the illusion it does is, I guess, a MU Peeve of mine (MU Board Peeve, which is very meta). People figure it out very quickly and are going to respond, this stuff is not really general a lot of the time unless it’s a pretty old gripe.
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I get that everyone is very excited to be able to AI generate
Henry Cavill their favorite actor as their PC, but can we please keep everything safe for work on actual character pages? Generate all the naked/nearly naked pics you want sure, but please share them on Discord or something and don’t post them to your character page. -
@mangosplitz said in MU Peeves Thread:
@Pacha said in MU Peeves Thread:
There was definitely a long delay with staff being unavailable and then the Christmas break. I will personally say that I am not a great fan of “closed” events being posted publically (I also play on Shattered, where they do that a lot, and I really dislike it). Still, I get it is a useful organisational tool.
This was really my only thing. It was just frustrating after having the game go dormant other than a handful of players who struggled to keep events and activity up over a two or so month period while staff was burned out (only to see a bunch of THOSE players get burned out and quit after picking up that burden), to see staff make a triumphant return and only address a portion of stuff in the same corner. But looking at it from their perspective I suppose it’s easier to bring things back in clumps and all those scenes were interrelated, but this is where “telepathy” comes up with communication to players that their stuff is coming, too.
Hasn’t it been, like. A week? Since the holidays? It sounds like this was just the first thing up on the docket. This whole post feels very “a valiant group of players KEPT THIS GAME ALIVE [through a very common MU* lull period during the holidays when activity is expected to be quieter], staff now OWES US.”
I do wish there was an option to make private events, but at the end of the day, it’s just a scheduling tool. It’s hard to get players together at the same time, and utilizing a scheduling tool that will actively remind players that they’re meant to be doing a thing makes that process easier.
To bear necessities: I wasn’t trying to vaguebook to be edgey, I was just trying to post a general MU Peeve as the thread is called, not “name and shame” a particular game on blast just because that happened to be the the most recent place I saw this thing (which others have agreed is a peeve) happen. It wasn’t meant as an attack on the game (it’s a fun concept and has awesome players and a very dedicated head staffer), just something that kind of sucks when I see it happen (and this isn’t the first or second MU I’ve seen it happen on).
Lol it was a very specific scenario to say it was a generalized peeve. not saying “don’t peeve,” but people are gonna put it together to the obvious specific scenario it’s referring to. If you want that to not happen, you usually have to give it more time or genericize it more.
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@Roz said in MU Peeves Thread:
Hasn’t it been, like. A week? Since the holidays? It sounds like this was just the first thing up on the docket. This whole post feels very “a valiant group of players KEPT THIS GAME ALIVE [through a very common MU* lull period during the holidays when activity is expected to be quieter], staff now OWES US.”
Yeah, look. I’m not trying to argue here, but since you’re ascribing some “feel” to my comment and making a few incorrect assumptions, I’ll offer minor clarification and then bow out of this. It’s a good game with good people, but I also think what I said was not as “entitled” as your summary makes it out to be.
With the exception of one open scene in late December and two scenes for a specific group to advance their plot in October, the last staff run scene of any kind open to anyone who wanted to join was in the middle of September. It introduced a really great plot twist that players were eager to engage with, but unfortunately staff had various things happen and so it kind of went dormant since September.
So it’s not really a “since/through the holidays” thing, it’s a “staff took a break for almost four months thing”. Which again is TOTALLY ok, and I prefer that to burn out, just clarifying I’m not whining about “the holidays”.
I don’t think any ‘valiant’ group of players is owed anything and I’m not one of those anyway, but a bunch of different players ran events in that time span keeping the game going for new players coming in, getting them engaged in RP, etc. because they love the game.
I think the word “owe” is a really charged term in a hobby where everyone is a volunteer and RL happens, so no one is OWED anything.
But I also think it is fair to say that players of an active game that averages 30 players at any given time might reasonably expect that after almost a four month hiatus, there might be something that they are allowed to participate in, instead of a month of scheduled scenes closed to a couple of groups.
OR (to invoke telepathy again) a post saying “Hey, we are trying to get back on our feet, we have exciting plans for everyone, but we are going to clear out a backlog of some small player specific scenes ones” instead of dead silence other than a bunch of CLOSED events getting slapped up without comment.
Communication goes a long way, and there just wasn’t any to the player base in general (unless I missed it, which I admit is possible, I’m not on every day and there’s no forum post), which I think is a fair thing to point out.
Lol it was a very specific scenario to say it was a generalized peeve. not saying “don’t peeve,” but people are gonna put it together to the obvious specific scenario it’s referring to. If you want that to not happen, you usually have to give it more time or genericize it more.
Yeah, I don’t often engage here, and honestly just thought I could vent about something generically (and I really thought I was vague enough) without naming anyone and go on about my day since I wasn’t (trying to) attack anyone or a game.
I’ll go back to being a lurker.
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@mangosplitz I do think that a headsup for stuff like that is probably wise if one assumes a lot of player unfamiliarity with ares on a game in particular.
Though I am biased perhaps because I did find being able to see everyone’s private scenes, who was in them, and when they last posed to be kind of weird and offputting, especially when it was a screen scroll compared to anything active and open. On a gridless game you have to look at that page to see if there’s anything open, and as I was used to all but public hotspots being private/unseen it just seemed kind of invasive on one hand and very intimidating on the other. (I’d definitely had to deal with +where and alt stalking on WoD games so just knowing who’s in private scenes and how active really squicked me TF out).
But that is totally an ares thing. It has taken me awhile to get used to ares’ transparency. It’s taken me a bunch of ares games to begin to get used to it, and it’s easy to backslide!
I’m sure it would have made some folks feel better to not see those events but I wonder if maybe then people would freak out that they would think no movement was going on anywhere (because players do freak out about stuff like that). Me personally, just to help keep FOMO in check I prefer not seeing them. However! I do love how accessible and integrated ares is, and if that’s the price of admission I’ve just been slowly learning how to deal with it.
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@mangosplitz said in MU Peeves Thread:
With the exception of one open scene in late December and two scenes for a specific group to advance their plot in October, the last staff run scene of any kind open to anyone who wanted to join was in the middle of September. It introduced a really great plot twist that players were eager to engage with, but unfortunately staff had various things happen and so it kind of went dormant since September.
That’s a pretty fair clarification. Was it communicated at all that they were taking a break? Was this a big departure in pacing?
It helps when staff is clear with players about setting expectations. Staff can’t read minds; neither can players. Communication is valuable on both sides. WHO KNEW?!
I’ve run games where we were clear that certain periods were going to be focused on staff run plots and then other periods were set aside for reactions, PRPs, and staff regen. I’ve also run games where I idled for months because I got distracted by something else and players were left in limbo. Guess which one worked better for me, as staff, and for them, as players?
As a player, I’ve also been in and seen others in the position of having stories languish for 6+ months, years even. It’s hard to keep up momentum. It sucks.
I think it just comes down to setting those expectations. And as easy as it is to say that, I think many who staff out there (myself included) are going to overpromise and underdeliver. We don’t always realistically consider what we can do, or what is going to come up. The number of players eager for people to run a story for them almost always outstrips the people who are there to runs story. That’s a problem I wish I could solve.
