Banning Bad, Actually?

Yam

@MisterBoring Yeah. I think it’s… in everyone’s best interest that the staffer makes the decision to nip this shit in the bud early on.

The staffer might be a doofus (look at AoA) but at least there’s a clean break instead of what happened on Tk5 where our stupid ass council had to vote to agree on everything and that involved giving strikes to a problem player that, over the course of a few months, wore ALL of the staff down and eventually dissolved the game.

Trashcan

@Faraday said in Empire Discussion Thread:

I know this is gonna’ be hard to believe for some folk, but you can actually have a game of relatively decent people that, even on their off days, won’t be particularly rude or pushy directly to the game runners. It might not be a BIG game, but from what I gather, it doesn’t look like most staffers want to staff big games anyway.

That’d be nice, but I have never in my life been on such a game.

I don’t know, man. The last game I was on, somebody was rude to staff and got banned for it right away, right after the game opened. That game went on to have over 4000 scenes, so it seemed to work out to me, and everyone was pretty chill in their dealings with staff after that, at least to my knowledge.

Meg

@Faraday said in Empire Discussion Thread:

Look, I’m not excusing rudeness here, but let’s be realistic. These are open public internet games with people who don’t always know each other well, and text-only chat. Text lacks tone. People don’t always word things right. Even the best players can have moments where they get frustrated or impatient.

i think this is a huge point. let’s not pretend we’re all angels who always have the best tone.

hell, one of the first games i was on, the staffers had to sit me down, metaphorically, and explain that my tone was coming off rude. did i know? no. i came from a different internet culture and honestly hadn’t put much thought into my text tone until that point.

if they had banned me instead of at least trying to give a warning, we wouldn’t be friends now, i wouldn’t have attended one of their weddings, and i’d probably have quickly dropped out of the hobby, because it was my second MUSH and the first one had it’s own thing with people being rude to ME, so.

so i’m not saying you can’t ban people, or that you have to put up with rudeness, or that you can’t have a small quiet game.

but there’s also good moments to be had in offering some patience in that position too.

Third Eye

@Trashcan said in Empire Discussion Thread:

I don’t know, man. The last game I was on, somebody was rude to staff and got banned for it right away, right after the game opened. That game went on to have over 4000 scenes, so it seemed to work out to me, and everyone was pretty chill in their dealings with staff after that, at least to my knowledge.

LOL I REMEMBER THIS PERSON.

For what it’s worth, this wasn’t a ‘first offense’ kind of banning, this person had been a nightmare to deal with in CG and been given a ‘second chance’ after they finally managed to take some feedback and get themselves in shape for approval.

That’s a case where it actually might’ve been better to just show this person the door before they got out of CG because that’s often less of a headache and waste of time for everyone involved if someone is giving off ‘bad fit’ signals, but you make your choices.

I think this is what a lot of these bannings for what appears to be ‘borderline’ behavior actually are. Staff take a lot of shit the player populace never sees.

Yam

This is implying we lack all ability to exercise grace and understanding when it’s clear someone is having an off day. Do you think most people can’t recognize when someone is someone is just in a shitty situation and truly, deeply confused? And I say this as someone that initially asked their friends, baffled, why they were on Ada’s “side” when it looked like Ada went for the nuclear option.

Guys we’re talking about someone that was banned from a game for using chatGPT to RP his girlfriend in event scenes to also get extra equipment to share between accounts.

To Third Eye’s point, how often is this the “first offense”?

helvetica

@Third-Eye To quote a scholar (@Tat), CG can be as much an interview period to feel out a player and how they navigate your system, hearing the word no, etc.

I’ve banned someone during CG for being generally disruptive, becoming increasingly agitated with the system and insisting thematic areas that were explicitly not allowed should be plausible for them because they could talk in circles real good.

@Yam There is a distinction between lacking the ability to offer grace and choosing not to offer grace. I understand that you qualify some sort of moral superiority to being forgiving, but forgiveness isn’t something owed. In our hobby, admin are going to make judgment calls. If those judgment calls don’t align with your world view to this level where you’re still chewing on it, that’s when you as a player should consider playing on a different game. (This is theoretical. I don’t know if you play there. I don’t play there.)

Meg

@Yam i’m not on either side. i literally care nothing for either of these people. in my opinion, some of the people pushing back are not pushing back on this specific instance, just on the idea that its actually a good thing to go nuclear as soon as someone is rude.

it’s an option, and i don’t think it is a bad option. i don’t think it’s a good option, either. i think it’s just an option and i think you are going to miss some people and moments, that’s all.

my example? it wasn’t a bad day for me. i was just rude, not paying attention to my tone. for weeks, at least, before staff talked to me.

Tez

@Meg said in Empire Discussion Thread:

@Yam i’m not on either side. i literally care nothing for either of these people. in my opinion, some of the people pushing back are not pushing back on this specific instance, just on the idea that its actually a good thing to go nuclear as soon as someone is rude.

I think it’s a mistake to treat this as a generic case rather than a specific one.

Yam

@Tez I need you to split this convo off into a topic called Is Banning Bad, Actually?

Faraday

@Tez said in Empire Discussion Thread:

I think it’s a mistake to treat this as a generic case rather than a specific one.

Why? The convo has long since spun off from WS/Ada into a more generic discussion about whether it’s best to tow a hard line on banning people for “being rude” (which is an incredibly vague line that I’d be willing to bet WE HAVE ALL CROSSED, intentionally or not, at one point or another).

Tez

@Yam said in Empire Discussion Thread:

@Tez I need you to split this convo off into a topic called Is Banning Bad, Actually?

Get fucked.

@Faraday said in Empire Discussion Thread:

@Tez said in Empire Discussion Thread:

I think it’s a mistake to treat this as a generic case rather than a specific one.

Why? The convo has long since spun off from WS/Ada into a more generic discussion about whether it’s best to tow a hard line on banning people for “being rude” (which is an incredibly vague line that I’d be willing to bet WE HAVE ALL CROSSED, intentionally or not, at one point or another).

I don’t think it’s true that people are actually all treating it as such. I think – and I say this with GENTLE SARCASM ONLY because TONE IS HARD IN TEXT – that we might all be coming into this from different perspectives based on our own experiences with the people involved and the situation at large. I don’t think it’s really a pure abstract thought exercise here. This is coming from a very specific example.

Tez

Forked from https://brandmu.day/topic/615/empire-discussion-thread/44

Yam

HAVE WE GONE TOO FAR WITH BANNING??

bear_necessities

@Yam we don’t ban enough. Coming off a recent game where I had vibes that another player was a notorious creeper and was doing Weird Shit that maybe wasn’t “bannable” per policy but definitely would’ve gotten them booted if it was my game, I think we should ban liberally and often.

MisterBoring

After 25 years of MUing, I’m of the opinion that people try to give others way too many chances.

I think the sweet spot for me as a staffer is 1. You get 1 screw up that I don’t ban you for, and I will let you know when you have spent your 1. When you screw up the second time, pack your bags.

Even then, there are exceptions. Particularly awful behavior will result in an instant ban with no discussion.

Trashcan

Having recently played on a game where banning/asking to leave was applied in what I would describe as a fairly liberal manner and for many years on games where it was, in fact, almost impossible to get banned, the experience was dramatically more positive on the game that was relatively zero-tolerance for bad behavior. It was a smaller game than the other ones but, and I cannot overstate this, that was a small price to pay.

Everyone has a bad day sometimes. Sometimes people are bad at regulating how that affects the people they interact with. It does happen. But as the philosopher G.W.Bush once said, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me- you can’t get fooled again.

Yam

Like that whole PVP thing… I think people are fresh off of many years of “well they’re just being a little rude, no need to slam them into oblivion-- oh no. Oh no, they’ve spun out. They’re unpleasant to staff for, and now my players wont ask on the LFRP channel for fear of dealing with this person, but I cannot ban them now, we’re kind of friends :/”

helvetica

@Yam Is this in reference to WoD culture? If so, does not apply.

I can only speak for myself in that… being admin on a game is not a customer service position and if you take out your bullshit on admin like it is one even a little bit, you run the risk of being invited to leave. That might be a difficult metric, but so is being a little asshole.

PSA: Don’t treat customer service workers poorly, either.

Faraday

@Tez said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

that we might all be coming into this from different perspectives based on our own experiences with the people involved and the situation at large. I don’t think it’s really a pure abstract thought exercise here. This is coming from a very specific example.

Can’t speak for anyone else obviously, but I have been approaching it as a purely abstract thought exercise. I don’t know the game in question or anyone involved in the original situation, and the log we saw alluded to some degree of prior history that we have no context for. Maybe there was just a bad vibe. I have no idea.

Ominous

@Faraday said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

@Tez said in Banning Bad, Actually?:

that we might all be coming into this from different perspectives based on our own experiences with the people involved and the situation at large. I don’t think it’s really a pure abstract thought exercise here. This is coming from a very specific example.

Can’t speak for anyone else obviously, but I have been approaching it as a purely abstract thought exercise. I don’t know the game in question or anyone involved in the original situation, and the log we saw alluded to some degree of prior history that we have no context for. Maybe there was just a bad vibe. I have no idea.

Same.

For those who are on the side of ban early and ban often, might I suggest running private, whitelist server for just your friends? Or maybe have a rigorous review process requiring an interview between staff and an applicant before they can CG?

Anyways, I am all for banning someone when they’re being a shit. I just didn’t think Warma Sheen was being a shit in the text provided.