I believe you stated you don’t believe you should be banned and also said that staff told you the delay was related to being uncomfortable dealing with you?
What are the options then?
Staff deals with you despite discomfort?
New staff is hired and told to handle your jobs?
I do have a few questions. Is @gashlycrumb banned? Does he want to be banned if not? Does he still play there? Does he believe he should be banned?
I ask these questions because I believe he is saying staff on Liberation dislikes him and won’t answer his jobs and that staff not banning a player who’s jobs they don’t answer out of dislike is unethical?
Also is it possible that staff does like him or at least doesn’t dislike him, but jobs got delayed for other reasons?
You make a good point.
Sometimes games go through periods almost like breaks where almost no jobs are answered.
I think Liberation kind of went through one after Sundance got busy and before new staff got going.
I am not sure if this partly why @gashlycrumb jobs were not answered or not.
If they truly just could not stand him and nobody wanted to deal with him, a ban is probably best. I believe I also said effectively this in my post above.
The word job was used to describe what staff does and in a way staffing is a job. An unpaid and often thankless job that comes with unending amounts of tasks.
IMO staff does have some obligations towards players like not being a creep, dealing with creeps on the game, not cheating and etc.
I don’t feel that obligation extends to storytelling for every player in a timely manner and giving everyone a turn. That might sound cold, but staff have family, friends, pets, jobs, health issues and etc. A demand that they answer jobs quickly or run a scene might sound reasonable, but demanding staff to be quick and get to everyone is a big ask for someone not being paid and not on the clock. It also can be impossible depending on the size of the game and the number of staff.
Staff has all the same real life issues and demands that non staff has. IMO we don’t want staff burning out or feeling pressured to neglect real life needs for the game.
It is best when everyone gets their turn, but it is easier said than done. Some people are not online very often or have hours that don’t match up well with staff. Some people chill in the background and don’t even want the spotlight in scenes. Tracking whose turn it is quite hard and the judgement of that can be very subjective. There are some players that no matter how much time and attention they get will never feel they had their turn to spotlight or their fair share of staff attention.
To me boundaries are extremely important. I don’t believe that staff should ever have to roleplay with people they are uncomfortable with or have an obligation to engage in role play even as the GM with a player they want distance from.
I don’t think every time a staffer needs a break or some distance from a player it needs to be a ban. Sometimes it does, but sometimes a little space is good enough.
If a player is truly so difficult that the majority of staff want nothing to do with them and dealing with their requests is a big unwanted chore, it probably is best to just ban them. Not every situation is that extreme though.
Also sometimes things become a self fulfilling prophecy. Maybe staff didn’t answer a job yet because real life is crazy and the player stews about how staff probably dislikes them and they start to complain. Well staff might not like the player pressuring them for time consuming things will they are trying to get their dog to the vet or mop up the flood in the kitchen or whatever is keeping them from getting through game tasks.
Or TLDR
Nobody is entitled to scenes, gaming or role play from staff. No unpaid person on a game owes us their time or attention. They owe you not being a creep, following the rules etc.
It is most ideal for staff to tell one directly and quickly if they don’t want a player around.
It is not usually how it happens.
Most ideal doesn’t mean they are bad if they don’t.
Disclaimer: I’m not referring to this situation in particular but thinking more generally.
Staff are unpaid volunteers, fellow players and not paid professionally trained Human Resources or therapists. Staff should still be ethical. But is not telling someone difficult with them to take a hike where I draw my line and say they are unethical staff? Absolutely not.
They might intend to get to that player but keep procrastinating on the unpleasant task. They might be waiting until they have more spoons to deal with the difficult jobs. They might be avoiding drama and conflict. They might think the conversation will get ugly and involve them being verbally mistreated and hope the person just leaves on their own. They might be intimidated by said player or their friend group. They might sincerely hope the player chills and things get better with time. They might not want to ban so that player can still enjoy the aspects of the game that one doesn’t need a gm for.
They also might have no big problem with said player and could have forgot to answer the job, are buried in tasks and jobs and etc.
I also had jobs sit for an extremely long time on Liberation. I didn’t and don’t think it had anything to do with staff disliking me. There was a long stretch when the game was pretty inactive and barely staffed. It seems to be resolving now and getting more active. I don’t think there was anything personal about staff being slow in the slow period. I also think there was basically one staff only doing the entire game and every sphere alone until recently.
What might seem like malice to someone waiting could be a lot of other things.
I also don’t think anyone even staff should be obligated to participate in role play they don’t desire to participate in which includes imo an obligation to run scenes and GM scenes for others.
Staff creates a framework for our roleplay but isn’t under an obligation to entertain us all. The game is what we make of it.
Sometimes staff will hold off on full bans for someone who annoys them but is not being a terrible creep because maybe a storyteller will come along who isn’t annoyed by them or maybe some other players really enjoy them.
I agree with Kestel though that if one isn’t getting what they want from a game (it doesn’t really matter why) than just leave. I’m content to wait a long time and expect it on WOD but that is not for everyone.
Walk with your feet. Find or make the community that is right for you.
Yeah I agree. That is a great idea. You are right that people could be coerced into not reporting or even kind of blackmailed like now that you did x if you don’t role play y I’m telling staff you did x.
While that sounds cray people who like to cross boundaries often find a shady way.
The creepy WOD vampire player kind of went down this path according to the gossip anyway. He allegedly would go “your character did xyz wrong. They can be punished with x or with pk. Now that you did x which is against the rules if you go to staff we both go down.”
It is tricky because there are creepers on these games whose kink for being the aggressor in SA extends to enjoying pushing boundaries ooc. Definitely not everyone but they exist.
On the other hand people who are ic victims of SA roleplay and recruit protectors and ic comfort after in a loud hard to avoid way are imo often the ooc aggressor where their unprepared unwarned audience for this is imo the ones being mistreated.
In some SA the player playing the victim suggested and initiated the role play which is imo not only fine but ideal. When the aggressor is ooc pushing for the role play it can be a red flag.
Things can be further yikes when one player has some ooc power in the situation like Ic authority, being staff or friends of staff.
The creepy vampire player sought out ic positions of authority and was at times buddies with staffers.
I will try to break this down and analyze it.
Disclosure on my bias: I am not Siren’s ooc friend and I’m not in discord off game communication with her. I’m not and never have been very involved in her plots and am not a frequent role play partner of hers. That being said I like her and get along with her. In addition I tend to favor staff in these sorts of debates as I feel like staffing is easier said than done and there is always going to be someone who isn’t happy. I also weigh in that staff are unpaid volunteers with their own real life responsibilities.
I believe Siren is being accused of stealing the game, showing favoritism, not answering jobs, not keeping the game active, dropping role players who don’t role play to her preference and keeping abusive players around.
Stealing the Game: Sundance has been inactive for a very long time and was less and less active before she fully left. I have no hard feelings as real life first and hope she is well. Siren I am pretty confident had and still has Sundance’s blessing and somebody needed to step up or Liberation won’t be staffed. I don’t think she stole, I think she was given.
Showing Favoritism: I don’t know, I’m not deep enough into things there to know. Most staffers are eventually accused of this. It’s a bit subjective. Also at the end of the day staff are people who will role play with those they enjoy and staff who try to tough it out and role play with those who irk them usually burn out.
Not Answering Jobs: yes this did happen, but I don’t judge harshly as staffing is tons of work and Siren was doing it mostly on her own for a while and likely started with a huge back log. This is also my answer for not keeping the game active. She also has a family irl.
Dropping role play partners: I would need receipts on this. What role play choices did she cut people off over? Sometimes there is a valid reason.
Keeping Abusive players around: There is a couple abusive players around. I have faith that when they act abusive under her watch she will act as she did with Addison. I don’t think Addison was the most problematic player there and I have concerns about a player there who has been banned on most other games. Because of this one player I do kind of agree with this complaint against Siren. This player is in best behavior mode right now as Liberation is really the only WOD that will have him. He can be charming and likable when he tries and has been laying it on thick to Siren. Still I think when he goes back to his bad ways Siren will take the ethical action. Time will tell how this will go. I suppose there is also a small unlikely chance he sincerely changed.
I did talk to staff and there were staff alts in these scenes. They didn’t seem concerned about the child character.
I believe it was implied above that someone used Addison’s ooc complaints against him rather than listening to him.
I don’t know who complained or the contents of their complaint so I really can’t be sure what happened.
There are a few things I do know though.
Siren is well intentioned, intelligent and has good social understanding. I don’t believe she would ban anyone without a good reason. In addition I don’t think she enjoys giving out punishments and I don’t believe she wanted to ban him. I am not her ooc friend just a player who has witnessed her consistently acting right.
It is of course still possible she made an error in judgement, but I don’t think that is the most likely scenario.
I know that Addison is extremely intelligent, creative, energetic, well educated and forgiving.
I am not really his friend either.
Addison in my understanding has a history of jumping into ooc page conversations pretty quickly. In these conversations he has been known to give a generous amount of unsolicited advice and information on game them. He doesn’t take hints well imo and I don’t think always realized when it was time to stop.
People who are used to Addison often shrug it off and people who know him better will sometimes say he is well intentioned and just trying to help.
A good deal of his complaints are valid imo, but they are not all valid. In addition the theme of WOD is complex and nuanced. It changes from book to book. There isn’t always one definitive answer when it comes to theme and not everyone always agreed with Addison.
Liberation has changed the theme with house interpretations and for the better, but that only further complicates theme.
Not everyone plays the game with the same intensity. Some people are part time occasional players chilling for a few hours after work and spending that time in paged tense ooc conversations may not be ideal.
I think the most probable explanation is that Addison paged some players with complaints, didn’t pick up on the social cues to back off and then argued with staff when approached.
I don’t think anyone complained in malice. If I see receipts that show otherwise I might change my mind.
Sometimes a ban is from a back breaking straw and not the whole haystack.
As to comment about people should Listen to his complaints, I would argue nobody is obligated to listen to ooc paged complaining and the decision to go staff for help is a fair choice if one feels things are crossing the line.
Unless you come with receipts, I’m not buying the nefarious complaining to staff angle.
That being said Addison is a wonderful role player. If he is given a second chance or finds another mush I will be happy for him.
I think it is better to make SA against the rules, but not spy on private scenes.
If people really are keeping it private nobody will know. If they are not keeping it private causing staff, other players and characters to have to deal than it makes it easier to ban since the topic is against the rules.
Yeah I agree with you. It is never okay to expose people to SA without enthusiastic consent that comes without pressure and that includes aftermath and fallout role play.
People who get exposed suddenly to role play involving helping a victim are being wrongly treated by those imposing the role play on them.
My personal taste for erotic role play is with consent that isn’t just ooc, but IC as well.
However I am supportive of people privately and consensually exploring SA themes. Any leak including aftermath that exposes any player who doesn’t want to be exposed is unethical and unacceptable.
There is also the danger of consent that is not really consent. There was a creeper vampire player on WOD games who had a history of bringing in SA in situations where it became consent to SA or your getting Pkilled which I didn’t think should count as consent. Staff didn’t agree with me though.
Addison writes beautifully, is deeply intelligent and was a huge part of Liberation for a long time. He knows a massive amount about game theme and has very strong opinions on how things should go. He is a passionate and talented role player.
He also pages people too often ooc, complains too much ooc, can be bossy and controlling ooc towards other players.
Staff probably didn’t enjoy banning him and I don’t envy their position.
While Addison had a lot to offer, he didn’t always know when to back down and chill.
I’m not familiar with the details and events leading up his banning, so my insight is limited. That being said as much as I admire Addison’s writing and passion for the game, I can absolutely believe he crossed a line and deserved the ban.
I feel bad for staff being in this position and despite very much believing he truly earned the ban, I feel a little bad for Addison. The game meant a lot to him. He isn’t a bad person imo. That being said sometimes for good of the community hard choices need to be made and sometimes someone is a bad fit for a community or needs a break from mushing,
I hope he is doing well and finds other outlets for his creative talents.
I could care less about what kind of role play consenting adults engage in behind closed doors.
If people are doing SA role play ethically imo nobody will even know who doesn’t want to know.
I also don’t mind dark stories (with full consent of everyone involved) that include the existence of SA from the view point of fighting evil and saving victims.
SA role play being forced into role play by coded game mechanics is gross. Even with the option of fading to black I find it icky. That player still has to deal with the consequences of SA. Just because someone is okay with SA entering role play in some circumstances doesn’t mean they want that storyline with any person who pulls out the SA dice.
Having that code is likely to attract players who enjoy forcing past the boundaries of other players. There is a possibility that some players might end up there who aren’t comfortable with that code or capable of handling that kind of role play. It opens the door for abuse and will attract creepers imo.
TLDR: fully consensual role play especially private role play that involves SA themes is fine. Coded non consensual SA role play is disgusting.
I have no problem with kid npcs in moderation on games. Less is more when it comes to children on games and brief occasional appearances are imo better than frequent drawn out appearances. The brief appearances can make the world feel more immersive and realistic.
I have had a few negative experiences with on screen kids and even fully quit a couple games over how kids on screen were handled.
One game an adult pc never went anywhere without her young daughter. The player was frequently online and joined most plots and gatherings so the child was constantly around even in very dangerous situations. She played her adult pc very minimally and mostly as a quiet background character and focused the bulk of her effort on role playing the child whose beauty and magic specialness was emoted about constantly. The child was pushy for attention and overly cutesy giving everyone pet names and trying to grab in people’s hands and etc She didn’t like it when role play wasn’t focused on her and would get more and more pushy if people lowered their interaction with her.
She especially was fixated on getting attention from my character and I felt like this child showed up wherever I was role playing with a frequency where I started to feel stalked. Then the child started to flirt with my alt. I was grossed out by the flirting and also completely uninterested in daily roleplay with a child npc so I left the game entirely.
This is a decision I do not regret at all.
I believe that my post was partly emotional and was not worded well. I should have let this rest. I also think Kestral was coming from a good place and made good points and I appreciate Tek’s input in changing the name.
Wiki said he got an antisemitic dm from an unknown user and suggested it could be from retro staff. He did I believe admit there was nothing connecting the dm to retro beyond timing.
Retro staff as far as I know said nothing racist to him even accidentally. While they could apologize and maybe did that someone did that, I don’t believe they should apologize as if they did a wrong.
I don’t believe they should be held accountable for the actions of an unknown user who has no known association with them.
Things like this is partly why the allegation is concerning as well meaning people may go but staff should apologize. Also it is partly on me as my wording was unclear and continued with the information from the other thread. I really made this worse by speaking up and apologize myself especially to retro staff as now it is spiraling.
Sorry I can’t find the command to change the title.
@Tez
Sure I absolutely meant to reply and replied wrong. I would be fine with the posts being moved if they can be.
Your post has upset me and is partly why it took me so long to respond. It is difficult topic and beyond the scope here.
I believe there are racists in this hobby. We been given no reason to believe retro staff are among them. Even Wiki admitted there is no reason to believe they are among them.
You don’t need to believe me. It is what it is. It can be hard to know online who people really are so while the doubts are ouch, I can empathize with them.
I didn’t mean to make a new thread. I’m
A known player and not hiding.