Don’t forget we moved!
https://brandmu.day/
Making it Easier to Nope Out (or should we?)
-
Thinking more on get out of jail free: it’s very possible to have ICC without engaging with it directly, in a lot of cases. For instance: I hate Arx duels. They stress me tf out and I live in terror of getting challenged. But one day I realized that should it happen, I can nope out of rping a duel without trying to get out of the duel. It can happen off-camera with agreed or rolled results, or it can happen as an event that I don’t plan and don’t attend. I never have to RP about duels at all, in fact, in order to still have ICConsequences of being challenged.
Caveats being 1. it’s likely not everything can be resolved in some other non-involvement way. 2. people trying to get out of jail free will find ways to get out of non-involved consequences, too
-
I haven’t often observed noping out in a way that I thought was to dodge consequences such as maiming or death, so I guess I’ve just generally had good luck in that regard. Most I’ve had to deal with was someone being not-so-graceful in the face of a coded combat competition that would decide the outcome of a tournament, and having it go… rather disastrously against them.
The negative emotions they were feeling at the time meant they had to flee the scene before their character bit even hit the ground. I felt horribly guilty for that, and then frustrated at the time, because instead of a fun little event, I just felt awful for inadvertently causing someone to feel shame and discomfort. At the time? Oof, I internalized their feelings, and it made it hard to finish out the scene.
But… with a dose of time added to the mix, I think I can look back and say, “That person got so frustrated/embarrassed that they had to remove themselves from the situation. They had it far worse than me, as they hit their threshold.”
So in that sense, I’m now glad they elected to nope out, as they clearly needed to do exactly that. Did it no-sell me? Sure. But they protected themself.
I do advocate for noping out, so long as it’s well-communicated.
@mietze said in Making it Easier to Nope Out (or should we?):
When I was younger “omg ica=icc!!!” was far more important to me.
Same. This has dulled considerably with time for me, too. I’d like to think the hobby is getting more empathy for the poor sods typing the words into the text boxes, nowadays, as the average age drifts upward. Not to say that younger hobbyists aren’t capable of empathy, but more that I find that older hobbyists are generally more prepared to display empathy.
To steal a quote I like:
“You’ve faced several life-or-death situations. That doesn’t make you an adult. Finding more fallen-out hairs on your pillow, watching your favorite stuffed bread disappear from the convenience store. The accumulation of those little despairs is what makes a person an adult.”
I think the same is true of empathy. As you drift through life accumulating despairs, both little and large, you become a more mature entity - because you’re that much more likely to be able to put yourself in someone else’s shoes.
-
To be fair, the only reason I even mentioned ‘using it to get around IC consequences’ is because trying to have this discussion almost always results in a ‘but somebody could CHEAT IT by PRETENDING to be upset’ derail. I haven’t seen somebody attempt to dodge consequences this way in a really, really, really long time.
the entity previously known as Sunny
-
No, no, I think that was appropriate. It’s usually what we all thought/think, isn’t it? Someone yanking their modem or something because their HP is at 5 and damage is about to be handed down. Whether or not that ever actually happens.
-
-
I HAVE seen people fake RL emergencies to get out of consequences of their IC actions, and I have seen it in recent memory, but generally speaking … it just led me not to trust that player or engage with them meaningfully. RL is obviously more important than IC. But it does happen – I don’t think it’s exactly the same as a nope for a trigger, though.
let it be a challenge to you
-
Are we talking about FTB an uncomfortable scene?
Or are we talking about retconning an uncomfortable storyline?
If someone wants to step away from a scene for whatever reason, I am fine with that. Whether it’s because they find the content squicky or because their dog just stepped on a bee (that shit happens, trust me), people gotta go sometimes.
If we’re talking about someone asking to vacate a storyline or retcon multiple scenes, my threshold is a little higher, and it may not be what feels “easy” to some people - but that may be a necessary evil in this hobby. Sometimes, established RP cannot be undone. The person doesn’t have to continue to RP, but they may have to concede some points to wrap up the storyline, depending on how involved it is.
And that’s just never going to be easy for some people.
-
When I think of “nope out” I’m thinking of something that happens like immediately. Kind of like a mic drop? You don’t mic drop now out of a discussion you had 6 months ago (unless it’s in your own head, dang those late comebacks!) So in my comments above I’m talking about how someone leaves a scene/content in progress at that moment. It shouldn’t have a huge retroactive impact on many people outside those in that scene.
So I would consider something like total removal of an entire wing of plot across a game to be highly disruptive and I think my bar for that is a lot higher than most, tbh, especially if people can avoid RPing about it personally with no consequence. Also not a fan of people mocking people for avoiding certain content OR implying that anyone who doesn’t is a horrible person. Both of those are way out of line, but they do happen.
-
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to retcon a scene because people have decided they don’t want to deal with the ICC of my character reacting thematically to things they have done or said, because I’ve literally lost count of the times it’s happened, but I definitely wasn’t thinking about those in the context of nopes; rather, it’s when playing out the ICC happens off cam, like we don’t wanna rp apology, penance, duel, interrobang, yet another rp about authority figure exercising authority over wilful subordinate–
Another example. I DON’T WANNA RP ABOUT BEING SICK. I have spent too much of my adult life sick in one way or another, I do not want it to be part of my rp. If there’s a plague plot, I either want to not get sick or to keep my character being sick entirely off camera. It doesn’t mean my character is never sick, it just means I don’t wanna.
I think I don’t wanna should always be a valid rp excuse.
let it be a challenge to you
-
@sao I agree! I think i don’t wanna should be that. If someone is I DON’T WANNA-ing in a way that is starting to really inconvenience storylines or keeps on happening, people will figure that out and can neutrally opt out of engaging.
Ok there was a whole other facet to this topic. I think it should be easier if it’s not easy somewhere. The way I see it, even if you are frustrated or disappointed or whatever at someone not wanting to play something out, there’s no way to get satisfying rp from someone if they…aren’t into it. Might as well just move on.
-
I feel strongly that no player should have to ‘play through’ something on screen that makes the game unfun. You don’t have to give a reason, you just say either ‘can we skip the details’ or ‘I’m not having a good time here, so MYPC is going to fade into the background’. That doesn’t mean that what’s happening ICly stops, but no player should have to play through it if they’re not okay with it.
If you want to change events as they are unfolding IC because the consequences of those events are going to be unfun, I do believe that it’s on the player to a) tell people, and b) propose an alternative that meets the needs of all players in the scene, not just yours. I’m not a huge fan of people going “Oh, then I never said that,” when the issue isn’t that they didn’t OOC understand that was a Bad Idea, but that the Consequences ended up not being what they expected and now they want it to never have happened - usually when other people have had to Deal With Their Shit for several scenes already.
And, inevitably, are going to do this exact same thing two weeks later, either with someone different, OR with the exact same person. Protestations of ignorance only get you so far, I feel.
But, honestly? That’s an OOC player problem, and needs to be dealt with by staff telling the problem player to knock it off or be uninvited. It should not be something PCs have to handle IC.
In general, if someone says ‘hey, this isn’t fun’, then I am super open to dropping it. What I tend to push back on is ‘hey, this isn’t fun, so I need your PC to do X thing and not Y’.
-
@sao said in Making it Easier to Nope Out (or should we?):
I HAVE seen people fake RL emergencies to get out of consequences of their IC actions, and I have seen it in recent memory, but generally speaking … it just led me not to trust that player or engage with them meaningfully. RL is obviously more important than IC. But it does happen – I don’t think it’s exactly the same as a nope for a trigger, though.
Seen that one multiple times with the same player which leaves you in this horrible place as the consequences side going - am I a monster for not believing the 4th time this has happened?
I think that people tend to assume that the scene where the consequences are being discussed is just going to be several hours of being yelled at, rather than a cooperative roleplay scene or a growth opportunity for the character(s). From my own experience, when I’ve played a character that’s got into some trouble, it has been just that. Sit there, get yelled at for an hour, and here’s your pre-written resignation letter you are signing. Is that fun? Not really. Could do without the pomp and ceremony.
Other times these have been pretty good scenes, made me pause and think - oh how would the character react? Justify it? Would they even do that?
Do I think people should be able to avoid IC consequences? Nope
Do I think people should be able to handwave a scene where it’s 2 hours of a character yelling at another character? Yeah, probably.
Anyway that’s all about noping out over consequences rather than themes. I’ve liked games with X-Cards or a Veil-Card (very similar, a loosely described fade to black rather than a full stop) since it helps people feel comfortable in engaging with a story as widely as possible.
-
@IoleRae said in Making it Easier to Nope Out (or should we?):
How do we avoid it being used as a get out of jail free card? Do we actually care?
This one is one of the easier ones for me to speak on.
It’s never a get out of jail free card. It is a not have to roleplay this card, and that’s all. You may not have to RP out the consequences of your actions, but your actions will have consequences.
For instance, you won’t have to RP out torture, or suffering of that sort, but your character still went through that. People will still know your character did X action that had Y consequence.
The only thing you’re getting out of is having to sit through an experience you don’t want to (for any reason) partake in. I don’t TS all that much anymore, so I don’t RP the sex but it still happens.
ETA: To continue my thought, if the only consequences for action are things that a player can’t/won’t/don’t want to participate in or even acknowledge then you need to come up with other consequences with the same kind of story impact without the problems. And if a game is oriented around problematic consequences (either generally or specifically problematic to you), you may want to reconsider your time there.
-
I need to think about this one more when I’m not at work, but the one that sticks out to me specifically was that I had a player that approached me while I was running plot asking me, “Please don’t bring in anything to do with spiders.”, as this player was extremely arachnophobic. Considering this was a dark fantasy game, yes, there is always a potential for the fantasy trope of ‘OH FUCK GIANT SPIDERS’. But in this situation, there was nothing wrong or stopping me or another GM from changing it from spiders from just…I dunno, I think I made it undead instead of giant spiders if I can recall.
-
I lean towards a stance that it’s okay to nope out of anything – but noping also comes with consequences.
You shouldn’t play anything you don’t want to play. That doesn’t mean others can’t play it. It also doesn’t mean that you can, as in the example above, tell a story teller that there can’t be spiders mentioned in the game setting.
I usually check with people before doing anything that might be considered triggering – and I include warnings in scene descriptions so that people know to not sign up for graphic violence, explicit sexual imagery, gore, or whatever the issue might be.
Ultimately, though, you have to respect that sometimes, somebody will just be, nope, leaving now – and it’s not a big deal. It’s just something that they can’t or won’t do – it’s not a criticism of you or anyone else.
This is a somewhat big deal to me as I’ve been removed from one game in the past for refusing to interact with a player who made me highly uncomfortable about refusing to TS him.
Any pronouns. Come to Chincoteague. We have ponies. http://keys.aresmush.com
-
@L-B-Heuschkel said in Making it Easier to Nope Out (or should we?):
It also doesn’t mean that you can, as in the example above, tell a story teller that there can’t be spiders mentioned in the game setting.
Honestly with this scenario I have to disagree with you. It doesn’t have to be spiders, so it’s perfectly okay for someone to say “hey, spiders make me uncomfortable, can we fight giant rats instead?”
But for things that are essential to your game’s theme, for whatever reason, then yeah it’s alright to be more “sorry, this is something we feel is vital to the game we’re trying to run.”
It’s definitely a case-by-case thing, and everyone’s going to have different points at which they put their foot down and say “I’m not changing this.” There’s a balance that has to be made.
He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
BE AN ADULT -
@Pavel It’s definitely a case-by-case thing. And it’s definitely alright to ask if the spiders can be skeletons instead if it makes no big difference. You just also have to accept that if it does in fact make a big difference, then maybe this is simply not a scene you should be in.
And that’s okay. You’re allowed to nope out without it being a statement. Sometimes, stuff just doesn’t work for you.
Any pronouns. Come to Chincoteague. We have ponies. http://keys.aresmush.com
-
@L-B-Heuschkel We definitely need to get comfortable with, as staff and players, the idea that not all games are for all people.
Games are gonna exist with themes and concepts that I cannot abide, and that’s just going to have to be okay with me. Even if I’ve invested hours in making a character and playing, and it turns out I misunderstood something. I can’t sunk-cost my way into forcing a change onto the game.
He/Him. Opinions and views are solely my own unless specifically stated otherwise.
BE AN ADULT -
I guess in that specific example it is about reasonable adjustments. Could you reasonably adjust a cave diving scene to not include spiders? Yeah, with ease.
Could you reasonably adjust a class in Spider Hugging 101? Nope, kinda needed.
-
@Pavel said in Making it Easier to Nope Out (or should we?):
@L-B-Heuschkel We definitely need to get comfortable with, as staff and players, the idea that not all games are for all people.
Games are gonna exist with themes and concepts that I cannot abide, and that’s just going to have to be okay with me.
Agreed. From what I’ve seen over time, the most successful games are the ones that don’t try to be for everyone and don’t try to do everything.
Turns out that to please everyone you have to compromise so much that the storyline suffers – and to do everything and cover everything, you need so many active hands and warm bodies that burn-out becomes a very real issue.
I’ve often thought that the notion that we have to cater to everyone’s needs is misunderstood inclusivity. We want to make a place where everyone feels welcome. But that does not equate making a place where everyone want to be. It ‘only’ means that our doors are open to anyone who’s interested in the specific thing we made.
